How many rounds to crack stock?
10-08-2015, 11:58 AM
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,915
How many rounds to crack stock?
Big Uncle has me nervous that I shouldn't ignore my gut instincts about adding a second recoil lug on a big bore rifle project.
So my question is this:
If you were worried about a stock cracking due to high recoil - bedded in Devcon steel - how many shots would it take for you to be comfortable that it's not battering your stock?
I'm considering getting a stock, bedding it, trying to break it, then if it breaks, I know I have to add a recoil lug before I get the exhibition stock, if it doesn't, I can be more confident that I won't break it.
I'll be buying and bedding a "fitting stock" to modify and send to the duplicator anyway, so it's not a big issue for expense, just wondering if I put 50, 100, 300, or XXXX number of rounds through THAT stock and the bedding holds, is it ever enough to be confident that the stock and bedding is sufficient?
My motivation, of course, is to eliminate the contact points on the barrel. With the rig I'm planning, one barrel is a high recoil round so it would potentially need another lug, the other barrel would not, and I don't want to have that barrel partially bedded.
So my question is this:
If you were worried about a stock cracking due to high recoil - bedded in Devcon steel - how many shots would it take for you to be comfortable that it's not battering your stock?
I'm considering getting a stock, bedding it, trying to break it, then if it breaks, I know I have to add a recoil lug before I get the exhibition stock, if it doesn't, I can be more confident that I won't break it.
I'll be buying and bedding a "fitting stock" to modify and send to the duplicator anyway, so it's not a big issue for expense, just wondering if I put 50, 100, 300, or XXXX number of rounds through THAT stock and the bedding holds, is it ever enough to be confident that the stock and bedding is sufficient?
My motivation, of course, is to eliminate the contact points on the barrel. With the rig I'm planning, one barrel is a high recoil round so it would potentially need another lug, the other barrel would not, and I don't want to have that barrel partially bedded.
10-08-2015, 12:24 PM
#2
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: south eastern PA
Posts: 16,138
Is that caliber one that is sold commercially? If it is get a hold of one and see how the barreled action is fastened to the stock. A reputable manufacturer isn't going to sell a rifle that the stock breaks on after two or three boxes of shells run through it. Just what are you planning on building, a .500 Nitro or something?
10-08-2015, 01:30 PM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,915
Yup, this is thinking towards my big bore Ruger project. This weekend, I'm going to bed my wife's new 7mm (that will become a 338wm) into a new stock for her to use this winter, and I was thinking more and more about the .458wm that I'll be building to go along with it. Sarah's rifle will probably be getting a .416Ruger barrel as well, as I really like the round so far, so that's a new addition - a 5th cartridge, and one that doesn't share a common case (Ruger says it shares a common follower and mag box, and of course, the same mag bolt face).
I'm not concerned about the angular lug, actually very confident in that design, but a little concerned that it'll be able to crush the wood around it. Every big bore I've owned had 2 lugs, but even then, if they weren't properly bedded, they'd break the stock. If they WERE properly bedded, I had nary an issue.
To Oldtimr's point about pulling a stock on an existing model, well, that's pretty simple - there's no such thing as a 458win mag Ruger M77 Hawkeye. The most powerful cartridge for which the Hawkeyes can be had is the .416 Ruger - which is about equal for ENGERY, but about 10-15% behind the 458wm in recoil momentum. I had a Ruger RSM in the past that DID have the "new version" of the forward recoil lug, but it cracked its stock behind the tang anyway. I bedded it into a replacement stock from Ruger, and it survived as long as I owned it after that without breaking, but that wasn't many shots (.458 Lott).
I've talked to a handful of big bore smiths that have agreed - if you bed the Ruger action properly, it action won't need a 2nd recoil lug. But I really don't care to crush a $1500 piece of wood either.
My discontent is coming from rumors - I bought a Ruger Hawkeye Guide Gun in .416Rug to act as a bench mark for these custom rifles, mine is from the early production, and does not have any recoil lug on the barrel, just the one on the action. I'm told, however, that "some people think" Ruger started putting them on the newer production models of the .416R African and Guide Gun, and that the Alaskan was discontinued because it was crushing the synthetic stocks (I don't buy that). However, I have yet to confirm anyone that owns a .416Ruger Guide Gun that HAS a 2nd lug, and Ruger customer service confirms that they do not (but they're not always aware of most recent product changes, especially on low volume models).
So I figure, why not test it out myself? If I can bed the rifle into a weaker stock, fire XX number of rounds without failure, then do the same bedding into a tougher/denser wood stock, pretty fair to assume it won't fail.
But what's that number? I'm thinking over 100rnds, not sure if I think a stock would crack after 300rnds if it didn't before (and if I ever fire 500rnds out of it, I'll be the one that's cracked!)
I'm not concerned about the angular lug, actually very confident in that design, but a little concerned that it'll be able to crush the wood around it. Every big bore I've owned had 2 lugs, but even then, if they weren't properly bedded, they'd break the stock. If they WERE properly bedded, I had nary an issue.
To Oldtimr's point about pulling a stock on an existing model, well, that's pretty simple - there's no such thing as a 458win mag Ruger M77 Hawkeye. The most powerful cartridge for which the Hawkeyes can be had is the .416 Ruger - which is about equal for ENGERY, but about 10-15% behind the 458wm in recoil momentum. I had a Ruger RSM in the past that DID have the "new version" of the forward recoil lug, but it cracked its stock behind the tang anyway. I bedded it into a replacement stock from Ruger, and it survived as long as I owned it after that without breaking, but that wasn't many shots (.458 Lott).
I've talked to a handful of big bore smiths that have agreed - if you bed the Ruger action properly, it action won't need a 2nd recoil lug. But I really don't care to crush a $1500 piece of wood either.
My discontent is coming from rumors - I bought a Ruger Hawkeye Guide Gun in .416Rug to act as a bench mark for these custom rifles, mine is from the early production, and does not have any recoil lug on the barrel, just the one on the action. I'm told, however, that "some people think" Ruger started putting them on the newer production models of the .416R African and Guide Gun, and that the Alaskan was discontinued because it was crushing the synthetic stocks (I don't buy that). However, I have yet to confirm anyone that owns a .416Ruger Guide Gun that HAS a 2nd lug, and Ruger customer service confirms that they do not (but they're not always aware of most recent product changes, especially on low volume models).
So I figure, why not test it out myself? If I can bed the rifle into a weaker stock, fire XX number of rounds without failure, then do the same bedding into a tougher/denser wood stock, pretty fair to assume it won't fail.
But what's that number? I'm thinking over 100rnds, not sure if I think a stock would crack after 300rnds if it didn't before (and if I ever fire 500rnds out of it, I'll be the one that's cracked!)
Last edited by Nomercy448; 10-08-2015 at 01:33 PM.
10-08-2015, 02:03 PM
#5
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,695
Well, your concerns are certainly well founded. Having fired several rifles of that "magnitude" and owning more than a few, they certainly are hard on a stock. Not to mention the shoulder behind that stock. If you were thinking about a laminated stock then your concerns would be a little less needed. But if you are going after a custom walnut then I personally would think quite seriously about adding another lug to "spread" that energy around so to speak. As far as your testing procedure, I would imagine 100 rounds should be plenty sufficient to show signs of stress. Granted anymore I surely wouldn't want to be the one doing the testing. My poor old shoulder just can't handle recoil like it used to. My .500NE will "straighten your hair" and it's getting to where I just can't handle full power heavy bullet loads from her anymore.
Last edited by super_hunt54; 10-08-2015 at 06:31 PM. Reason: forgot "can't" in the sentence
10-08-2015, 05:42 PM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,695
10-08-2015, 06:07 PM
#8
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location:
Posts: 5,130
10-08-2015, 06:30 PM
#9
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,695
I'm pretty sure Mercy would prefer a realistic test. He is an engineer ya know 
Granted using a vise or a lead sled would be torture but probably a bit beyond what he would want for reality. Though his shoulder would be thankful for the use of one
Granted using a vise or a lead sled would be torture but probably a bit beyond what he would want for reality. Though his shoulder would be thankful for the use of one
10-08-2015, 06:46 PM
#10
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,915
I don't have a lead sled myself, but my brother-in-law does. I've never seen a benefit from one, so I only had one for a short time...
BUT... Loaded with a couple hundred pounds of sand, it'd sure be a good stress test for a stock. I even still have a couple remote firing devices from my R&D days. Definitely more pressure than 200lbs of me behind it would have. BUT... definitely more likely to crush a stock, which might not be representative of what 200lbs of me would do.
I can usually get through 20-30rnds of 458wm before I give up, plus my wife is generally more recoil tolerant (or at least rolls better with heavy recoil) than I am, so she'll be able to stack up some rounds too.
I'll be bedding with a healthy layer of Devcon Steel (considering Titanium), and considering adding a solid steel block to the stock behind the recoil lug, supported screws and bedding. Kicking back and forth using steel tubing instead of the aluminum pillars that I have as well, at least for the front pillar. I've ran that idea by a couple smiths that are versed in building/rebuilding big bores, and they've all agreed that a good thick layer epoxy bedding job would be sufficient, let alone my plan(s), citing that factory rifles with extra lugs are designed to survive firing without bedding at all - just raw stock, which are generally poorly fit, so bedding offers more action support than it had from factory.
Hopefully I'm worried about nothing, but since the only down-side is having a pressure/contact point on my 300wm barrel, instead of fully free floating, otherwise I'd just dovetail a lug into the forend, drop a block of steel behind it in the wood, and be done with it.
BUT... Loaded with a couple hundred pounds of sand, it'd sure be a good stress test for a stock. I even still have a couple remote firing devices from my R&D days. Definitely more pressure than 200lbs of me behind it would have. BUT... definitely more likely to crush a stock, which might not be representative of what 200lbs of me would do.
I can usually get through 20-30rnds of 458wm before I give up, plus my wife is generally more recoil tolerant (or at least rolls better with heavy recoil) than I am, so she'll be able to stack up some rounds too.
I'll be bedding with a healthy layer of Devcon Steel (considering Titanium), and considering adding a solid steel block to the stock behind the recoil lug, supported screws and bedding. Kicking back and forth using steel tubing instead of the aluminum pillars that I have as well, at least for the front pillar. I've ran that idea by a couple smiths that are versed in building/rebuilding big bores, and they've all agreed that a good thick layer epoxy bedding job would be sufficient, let alone my plan(s), citing that factory rifles with extra lugs are designed to survive firing without bedding at all - just raw stock, which are generally poorly fit, so bedding offers more action support than it had from factory.
Hopefully I'm worried about nothing, but since the only down-side is having a pressure/contact point on my 300wm barrel, instead of fully free floating, otherwise I'd just dovetail a lug into the forend, drop a block of steel behind it in the wood, and be done with it.