Bolt Action rifle advice
09-10-2011, 08:58 AM
#41
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Trumbull County, Ohio
Posts: 9,572
Not to critiscize Okie, but you switched from a bolt action hunting rifle to a DPMS.
First, make sure that's legal where you are at, not all states allow semi-autos for deer hunting.
Second, I love these rifles, but they are not necessarily the best for "teaching" a young hunter proper technique. He liked it because it was fun to shoot I'm sure.
Third, his shooting and shyness of the recoil and noise will improve with more practice time.
Fourth, get him whatever, it's great to see a young guy shooting. But don't just buy based on a "wow" factor.
-Jake
First, make sure that's legal where you are at, not all states allow semi-autos for deer hunting.
Second, I love these rifles, but they are not necessarily the best for "teaching" a young hunter proper technique. He liked it because it was fun to shoot I'm sure.
Third, his shooting and shyness of the recoil and noise will improve with more practice time.
Fourth, get him whatever, it's great to see a young guy shooting. But don't just buy based on a "wow" factor.
-Jake
09-10-2011, 02:29 PM
#43
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 30
Bocajnala,
Here's from the Oklahoma reg's for 2011 modern arms whitetail season.
Legal Means of Taking -
I don't think it was "primarily" a cool factor on why he liked that rifle the most (although I am sure it was a cool factor that kept him from wanting to go home). After he had shot 10 rounds from the first rifle (bolt action 223) there was about a 15 minute break were he sat in the chair in the range while I went back to the counter to exchange the 223 for the 243. Upon coming back and loading it up for him, he said for me to shoot first as he massaged his arm. I shot 5 rounds and then pretty much had to make him try out the second one (243) where he did pretty poorly. After 10 rounds through it, he was saying he wanted to go home.
I only introduced the ar-15 because I knew that it had a gas system that reduced recoil significantly (prior military experience). I intended to only have some fun and didn't think he would take to it like he did. I agree and prefer him on a bolt action but at the same time if he is unable to hit the target because he's flinching and jerking the trigger there's really no point.
I whole heartedly agree that a 223 is not the best caliber for taking down dear, but with good shot placement under 200 yards I am 100% certain that it will do the job. The only reason I say 100% is that I myself started out on a 223 (bolt) when I was 10 and I was able to take down deer just fine. Additionally teaching him to shoot accurately shouldn't be much of an issue as I scored only 2 points under the max score for expert on three of my four m16a2 qualifications in the Corps (the last qual was 1 point under). I do recognize that he is only 10 but at the same time I have two more months to practice with him and I think that is plenty of time to get him shooting good enough for a kill shot.
Colorado Luckydog / emtrescue6,
Are whitetails in other states actually bigger? I thought it all depended on their diet and age that determined size? When I was sixteen I hunted some peanut fields near the Canadian river (It's a river in Oklahoma) I shot a 12 point buck at about 75 yards with a marlin lever action 30/30 (biggest kill for me, I can retell the whole story from start to finish - I will never forget it). I wasn't the type of hunter who weighed and measured and all that stuff. In our camp it was pretty much kill something or don't eat, but that deer took two of us to string up for getting the guts out and then we had to take turns hauling it over a mile back to camp. At the time I thought it was a beast? Definitely, not a dog sized deer and definitely not small.
Sheridan,
Only smurf ears, which I thought was odd. in the corps we wore both. But it was their rules and they didn't sell the little yellow ear foamies.
Here's from the Oklahoma reg's for 2011 modern arms whitetail season.
Legal Means of Taking -
- Rifles: Centerfire rifles firing at least a 55-grain weight soft-nosed or hollow-point bullet and having an overall cartridge case length of 1 1/4 inches or longer (9mm rifles are not legal). Clips or magazines of all .22 caliber centerfire firearms may not be capable of holding more than seven rounds of ammunition.
- Muzzleloaders: Equipment described as legal for deer muzzleloader season and blackpowder firearms loaded from the breech are legal.
- Shotguns: 20 gauge or larger, firing a single rifled slug are legal.
- Centerfire handguns: Chambered for .24 caliber or larger and 100 grain or heavier soft-nosed bullet having an overall cartridge case length of 1 1/4 inches or longer are legal (.357 or larger) and a minimum barrel length of four inches.
- Semi-automatic handguns: Chambered for any centerfire ammunition with a 100-grain or heavier soft-nosed bullet and having a cartridge case size of .40 caliber or larger (includes 10 mm, .357 Sig., and 40 cal. or larger) and a minimum barrel length of four inches.
- Handguns chambered for any centerfire rifle ammunition: Chambered for any centerfire rifle ammunition using at least a 55-grain soft-nosed bullet and having an overall cartridge case length of 1 1/4 inches or longer and a minimum barrel length of four inches.
- Archery: Equipment described as legal for deer archery season.
- Illegal devices: Fully automatic firearms, silencers, laser sights and light enhancement devices (night scopes) are illegal.
I don't think it was "primarily" a cool factor on why he liked that rifle the most (although I am sure it was a cool factor that kept him from wanting to go home). After he had shot 10 rounds from the first rifle (bolt action 223) there was about a 15 minute break were he sat in the chair in the range while I went back to the counter to exchange the 223 for the 243. Upon coming back and loading it up for him, he said for me to shoot first as he massaged his arm. I shot 5 rounds and then pretty much had to make him try out the second one (243) where he did pretty poorly. After 10 rounds through it, he was saying he wanted to go home.
I only introduced the ar-15 because I knew that it had a gas system that reduced recoil significantly (prior military experience). I intended to only have some fun and didn't think he would take to it like he did. I agree and prefer him on a bolt action but at the same time if he is unable to hit the target because he's flinching and jerking the trigger there's really no point.
I whole heartedly agree that a 223 is not the best caliber for taking down dear, but with good shot placement under 200 yards I am 100% certain that it will do the job. The only reason I say 100% is that I myself started out on a 223 (bolt) when I was 10 and I was able to take down deer just fine. Additionally teaching him to shoot accurately shouldn't be much of an issue as I scored only 2 points under the max score for expert on three of my four m16a2 qualifications in the Corps (the last qual was 1 point under). I do recognize that he is only 10 but at the same time I have two more months to practice with him and I think that is plenty of time to get him shooting good enough for a kill shot.
Colorado Luckydog / emtrescue6,
Are whitetails in other states actually bigger? I thought it all depended on their diet and age that determined size? When I was sixteen I hunted some peanut fields near the Canadian river (It's a river in Oklahoma) I shot a 12 point buck at about 75 yards with a marlin lever action 30/30 (biggest kill for me, I can retell the whole story from start to finish - I will never forget it). I wasn't the type of hunter who weighed and measured and all that stuff. In our camp it was pretty much kill something or don't eat, but that deer took two of us to string up for getting the guts out and then we had to take turns hauling it over a mile back to camp. At the time I thought it was a beast? Definitely, not a dog sized deer and definitely not small.
Sheridan,
Only smurf ears, which I thought was odd. in the corps we wore both. But it was their rules and they didn't sell the little yellow ear foamies.
Last edited by Okie76; 09-10-2011 at 02:31 PM.
09-10-2011, 02:41 PM
#44
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 30
Hey I have been doing some research on bolt actions with less recoil. Since I already got the approved overtime to go up to 800$ what do you all know about this rifle?
Howa Axiom Varminter in 243?
Description says:
Combining the proven Howa M-1500 barreled action with the Knoxx Industries Axiom V/S rifle stock, the Howa Axiom produces the ultimate in rifle comfort and accuracy. Utilizing the Knoxx Axiom V/S stock, the Howa Axiom provides unequaled shooting design and ergonomics, as well as a huge reduction in felt recoil (Reduces recoil by up to 70 percent). The Howa Axiom is ideally suited for either bench rest shooting or hunting, by providing an adjustable configuration for all shooting positions.
If you have shot one of these in any caliber alongside a regular stocked bolt action is there truly a 70% reduction in recoil?
Howa Axiom Varminter in 243?
Description says:
Combining the proven Howa M-1500 barreled action with the Knoxx Industries Axiom V/S rifle stock, the Howa Axiom produces the ultimate in rifle comfort and accuracy. Utilizing the Knoxx Axiom V/S stock, the Howa Axiom provides unequaled shooting design and ergonomics, as well as a huge reduction in felt recoil (Reduces recoil by up to 70 percent). The Howa Axiom is ideally suited for either bench rest shooting or hunting, by providing an adjustable configuration for all shooting positions.
If you have shot one of these in any caliber alongside a regular stocked bolt action is there truly a 70% reduction in recoil?
Last edited by Okie76; 09-10-2011 at 02:46 PM.
09-10-2011, 08:13 PM
#45
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Trumbull County, Ohio
Posts: 9,572
I don't have any experience with that at all. But I like what I read. Hopefully someone here has a little more input. The only downside I see on that is the weight, it's heavy. WHich does make a difference. But, for the reduced recoil it may be worth you lugging around for him.
-Jake
-Jake
09-10-2011, 08:17 PM
#46
Typical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Indiana county, Pa
Posts: 681
why not check with cabelas. they sometimes sell remington 700's for around $500 that comes with a scope. also keep an eye out for when they have the cards that offers you $150.00 when you spend $500.00. i bought a couple of rifles when they did this. this is a store credit and must be used in the store. i was able to get everything i needed to reload for the guns i bought. call them and see if they are going to offer this again.
09-10-2011, 08:23 PM
#47
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Southern TN
Posts: 1,018
You may consider shooting an AR-15 in .308...recoil isn't much more, and gives you much more punch. More range, more power and recoil is not unmanageable.
I know nothing about that Howa...also like what I read. May be an option.
Did any of the guns you shot at the range have an added recoil pad on them? They can make a pretty big difference. For about $20 you can get a limbsaver recoil pad that slides on the stock, and it makes my .270 feel like a .223 or so. Makes my 12 ga with 3.5" turkey loads feel like plain old field loads. Could help you out a lot.
I know nothing about that Howa...also like what I read. May be an option.
Did any of the guns you shot at the range have an added recoil pad on them? They can make a pretty big difference. For about $20 you can get a limbsaver recoil pad that slides on the stock, and it makes my .270 feel like a .223 or so. Makes my 12 ga with 3.5" turkey loads feel like plain old field loads. Could help you out a lot.
09-10-2011, 09:36 PM
#48
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,519
I know nothing about that Howa either, but do know the 1500's are good rifles.
That being said, I would get your son what he enjoys. If he doesn't have fun shooting a bolt action rifle, he isn't going to want to practice with it, and he is going to lose interest, and want an AR15 anyway. To me if that's what he likes it would be better to just start him with that and if he has fun, he is more likely to keep practicing, and keep shooting.
Also the Limbsaver slip on recoil pads are a great idea. I got the Winchester one at Walmart that's actually made by Limbsaver and the actual pad says Limbsaver on it not Winchester. It was right around $20 and it makes a huge difference. I use it anytime I shoot a hard kicking rifle, and it's amazing how much of a difference it makes. I'd recommend this for anyone that isn't a fan of recoil.
That being said, I would get your son what he enjoys. If he doesn't have fun shooting a bolt action rifle, he isn't going to want to practice with it, and he is going to lose interest, and want an AR15 anyway. To me if that's what he likes it would be better to just start him with that and if he has fun, he is more likely to keep practicing, and keep shooting.
Also the Limbsaver slip on recoil pads are a great idea. I got the Winchester one at Walmart that's actually made by Limbsaver and the actual pad says Limbsaver on it not Winchester. It was right around $20 and it makes a huge difference. I use it anytime I shoot a hard kicking rifle, and it's amazing how much of a difference it makes. I'd recommend this for anyone that isn't a fan of recoil.
09-11-2011, 05:17 AM
#49
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 30
Bocajnala,
Yeh 10 lbs is heavy. I will be doing all the major carrying (to and from) and we are both hunting from the same stand and there is a railing he can lean it on, so I wont have to worry about him holding it up while he sights in.
Bible_man,
The two bolt actions did have soft squishy butt stock ends on them, but they were what came with the rifle and not any type of slide on pads like the others are talking about.
hometheaterman,
I had thought about trying a recoil pad, but didn't know how effective they were.
I watched a ton of you tube video's about the axiom last night all in the 223 and 243's. They both looked like people were firing pellet guns. Some of them ran in slow motion showing kids firing them and there was virtually little to no recoil, that I could see.
I don't know anyone that has one of these. I cant find any bad reviews on it and the everything I have read raves about the drastic reduced recoil. I would prefer him to start on this over a semi automatic AR style rifle, so this is what where getting (in a 243). I just hope it doesn't turn into some kind of wobbly stocked piece of garbage.
I intend to put it on order on October 7th. After I get it in and get some practice time with it and the boy I will post back and let you all know how it shoots and how he likes it.
Thanks again for all your help.
PS
Due to the increased cost of the gun I am having to go with a cheaper scope and have decided on the Redfield Revolution. Trying to stay under 150$'ish on that and it had the best reviews that I read. That sound ok?
Yeh 10 lbs is heavy. I will be doing all the major carrying (to and from) and we are both hunting from the same stand and there is a railing he can lean it on, so I wont have to worry about him holding it up while he sights in.
Bible_man,
The two bolt actions did have soft squishy butt stock ends on them, but they were what came with the rifle and not any type of slide on pads like the others are talking about.
hometheaterman,
I had thought about trying a recoil pad, but didn't know how effective they were.
I watched a ton of you tube video's about the axiom last night all in the 223 and 243's. They both looked like people were firing pellet guns. Some of them ran in slow motion showing kids firing them and there was virtually little to no recoil, that I could see.
I don't know anyone that has one of these. I cant find any bad reviews on it and the everything I have read raves about the drastic reduced recoil. I would prefer him to start on this over a semi automatic AR style rifle, so this is what where getting (in a 243). I just hope it doesn't turn into some kind of wobbly stocked piece of garbage.
I intend to put it on order on October 7th. After I get it in and get some practice time with it and the boy I will post back and let you all know how it shoots and how he likes it.
Thanks again for all your help.
PS
Due to the increased cost of the gun I am having to go with a cheaper scope and have decided on the Redfield Revolution. Trying to stay under 150$'ish on that and it had the best reviews that I read. That sound ok?
09-11-2011, 05:55 AM
#50
Bocajnala,
Colorado Luckydog / emtrescue6,
Are whitetails in other states actually bigger? I thought it all depended on their diet and age that determined size? When I was sixteen I hunted some peanut fields near the Canadian river (It's a river in Oklahoma) I shot a 12 point buck at about 75 yards with a marlin lever action 30/30 (biggest kill for me, I can retell the whole story from start to finish - I will never forget it). I wasn't the type of hunter who weighed and measured and all that stuff. In our camp it was pretty much kill something or don't eat, but that deer took two of us to string up for getting the guts out and then we had to take turns hauling it over a mile back to camp. At the time I thought it was a beast? Definitely, not a dog sized deer and definitely not small.
Colorado Luckydog / emtrescue6,
Are whitetails in other states actually bigger? I thought it all depended on their diet and age that determined size? When I was sixteen I hunted some peanut fields near the Canadian river (It's a river in Oklahoma) I shot a 12 point buck at about 75 yards with a marlin lever action 30/30 (biggest kill for me, I can retell the whole story from start to finish - I will never forget it). I wasn't the type of hunter who weighed and measured and all that stuff. In our camp it was pretty much kill something or don't eat, but that deer took two of us to string up for getting the guts out and then we had to take turns hauling it over a mile back to camp. At the time I thought it was a beast? Definitely, not a dog sized deer and definitely not small.