which do u prefer 270 or 7mm mag
07-09-2011, 04:59 PM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,695
take a build 2 rifles, one 308, the other a 270 0r a 30/06, make all things equal (same quality in the barrels, same work on the actions, etc, etc.
work up the best loads possible for both, the difference will be, the shorter stiffer action of the 308, which is nullified in a custom that has the action trued and squared, will be measured in the .000's of an inch, would a deer know the difference? inaccuracies, are not built into a case.
RR
work up the best loads possible for both, the difference will be, the shorter stiffer action of the 308, which is nullified in a custom that has the action trued and squared, will be measured in the .000's of an inch, would a deer know the difference? inaccuracies, are not built into a case.
RR
For hunting, none of this matters of course.
07-09-2011, 06:26 PM
#13
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,081
Its been done the 308 consistently outshot the the 06, all custom builds at the 1000 yd mark, if you think the case has nothing to do with it yer wrong. The 308 rewrotethe book in 1000 yds back when it came out, so much so tie breakers couldnt be broken, theychanged the rules back then, the tragets were shrunk because of the 308. The 308 will shoot half the size groups of the 06 all things being equal, thats a fact.
For hunting, none of this matters of course.
For hunting, none of this matters of course.
Here is a direct quote from the following link.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com...cal-30-06.html
"Average score for the .30-06 at 1000 yards was 97.75% (195.5) over this period. During that same time, I shot 16 Palma matches (800, 900 1000 yards with a .308) and the average 1000 yard stage score during those matches was 97.5% (146.2). So we see a slight edge in score percentage for the .30-06 over the .308 at 1000 yards. (Palma matches have 15 shot strings versus the 20 shot strings of 1000 yard matches, therefore the percentage comparison is more useful than raw scores).
If you’ve been around Highpower for a while, you’ve certainly heard that the .30-06 is not as accurate as the .308. Without turning this article into a comparison of the two cartridges, I will simply say that those statements correctly reflect the difference between an M1 and an M14 firing Lake City Match ammunition, but are not correct when comparing handloads in a bolt-action rifle. The .30-06 does not play second fiddle to the .308 in the accuracy department – or any other."
Last edited by fritz1; 07-09-2011 at 07:02 PM.
07-09-2011, 07:09 PM
#14
Fork Horn
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 360
Didnt know they had more bullet options for the 270 over the 7mm. At least with Nosler, a popular brand, they list 130, 140, 150, and 160gr bullets for the 270. For the 7mm, 120, 140, 150, 160, and a 175gr. I'm sure there are some bullet makers with lighter options for the 270, but just a basic comparison, its a wash at best, and at worst, the 7mm has more choices. Loaded ammo, it seems your common weights for the 270 is the 130, and 150gr? 7mm you find alot in 140, 150, 160, and 175. In all honesty, its splitting hairs here. I prefer the 7mm mag over the 270, as it hits harder, modest recoil increase, shoots flatter, and is nearly as popular, and I dont have to say I shoot a 270 too,lol. Deer sized game wont see a difference. Id stand behind the heavier bullets of the 7mm over a 270 when it came to bigger game though. Its funny, I dont think anyone ever fussed about reloading belted cases enmass until the RUM came out and the shorter WSM, etc. After initial firing, neck size and forget, just like nonbelted. My 375H&H and 7mm rem mag feed as nice as the '06 in the cabinet. The belt bashing is as over-rated as the short mag craze IMO. With belted cases, its simpler to fireform, or interchange. With that belt, you can reliably fire H&H ammo in a 375wby, 458 win in a 458Lott, to name a few. Dont fall for the marketing hype. The shortmags are nice, but a replacement they are not. An additional choice of caliber, that they are, and very capable.
07-09-2011, 11:40 PM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,695
copied and pasted
All that aside, lets go back to when the .30-06 and .308 were the only cartridges allowed in NRA match rifle matches. Both cartridges were used in barrels of equal quality as well as the same action and stocks by several top shooters in the USA. Both cartridges were used in matches at ranges from 100 through 1000 yards. Many thousands of rounds were fired in both types. Bullets from 168 through 200 grains were used with several powder, case and primer combinations.
In comparing accuracy between the .308 and .30-06, folks who used each quickly agreed on one thing: .308s were two to three times more accurate than the .30-06. In the early 1960s, it was also observed that competitors with lower classifications using .308s were getting higher scores than higher classified folks using .30-06s; at all ranges. By the middle to late 1960s, all the top highpower shooters and virtually all the rest had switched to the .308. The Highpower Committee had received so many complaints of ties not being able to be broke between shooters using the .308 and shooting all their shots in the tie-breaking V-ring, something had to be done to resolve this issue. In 1966, the NRA cut in half the target scoring ring dimensions.
At the peak of the .30-06's use as a competition cartridge, the most accurate rifles using it would shoot groups at 200 yards of about 2 inches, at 300 of about 3 inches. The 600-yard groups were 6 to 7 inches and at 1000 yards about 16 inches. As the high-scoring ring in targets was 3 inches at 200 and 300 yards, 12 inches at 600 and 20 inches at 1000, the top scores fired would have 90+ percent of the shots inside this V-ring.
Along came the 7.62mm NATO and its commercial version; the .308 Winchester. In the best rifles, 200 yard groups were about 3/4ths inch, at 300 about 1-1/2 inch. At 600 yards, groups were about 2-1/2 inch and at 1000 about 7 to 8 inches. It was not very long before the .30-06 round no longer won matches nor set any records; all it's records were broken by the .308 by a considerable margin. Some accuracy tests at 600 yards with the .308 produced test groups in the 1 to 2 inch range. These were 20 to 40 shot groups. No .30-06 has ever come close to shooting that well.
At 1000 yards, where both the .30-06 and .308 were allowed in Palma matches, the .308 was the clear-cut most accurate of the two. If top shooters felt the .30-06 was a more accurate round, they would have used it - they didn't. In fact by the early 1970s, the scoring ring dimensions on the 800 - 1000 yard target were also cut in about half due to the accuracy of both the .308 Win. over the .30-06 and the .30-.338 over the .300 H&H when used in long range matches.
Most top highpower shooters feel the main reason the .308 is much more accurate than the .30-06 is its shorter, fatter case promotes more uniform and gentle push on the bullet due to a higher loading density (less air space) and a more easily uniformly ignitable powder charge.
Military arsenals who produced match and service ammo in both 7.62mm and 30 caliber have fired thousands of test rounds/groups with both. They also found out that with both ammo types, the smallest groups were with the 7.62 by about 50 to 60 percent. M1 rifles in 7.62 shot about twice as small of groups as .30 M1s at all ranges. When the M14 was first used, there were some .30-06 M1 rifles that would shoot more accurately. It took the service teams several years to perfect the methods of making M14s shoot well, but when they did, they shot as good as M1s in 7.62.
There will always be folks who claim the .30-06 is a more accurate cartridge. All I have to say to them is to properly test .308 vs. .30-06 and find out. Theory is nice to think about; facts determine the truth.
All that aside, lets go back to when the .30-06 and .308 were the only cartridges allowed in NRA match rifle matches. Both cartridges were used in barrels of equal quality as well as the same action and stocks by several top shooters in the USA. Both cartridges were used in matches at ranges from 100 through 1000 yards. Many thousands of rounds were fired in both types. Bullets from 168 through 200 grains were used with several powder, case and primer combinations.
In comparing accuracy between the .308 and .30-06, folks who used each quickly agreed on one thing: .308s were two to three times more accurate than the .30-06. In the early 1960s, it was also observed that competitors with lower classifications using .308s were getting higher scores than higher classified folks using .30-06s; at all ranges. By the middle to late 1960s, all the top highpower shooters and virtually all the rest had switched to the .308. The Highpower Committee had received so many complaints of ties not being able to be broke between shooters using the .308 and shooting all their shots in the tie-breaking V-ring, something had to be done to resolve this issue. In 1966, the NRA cut in half the target scoring ring dimensions.
At the peak of the .30-06's use as a competition cartridge, the most accurate rifles using it would shoot groups at 200 yards of about 2 inches, at 300 of about 3 inches. The 600-yard groups were 6 to 7 inches and at 1000 yards about 16 inches. As the high-scoring ring in targets was 3 inches at 200 and 300 yards, 12 inches at 600 and 20 inches at 1000, the top scores fired would have 90+ percent of the shots inside this V-ring.
Along came the 7.62mm NATO and its commercial version; the .308 Winchester. In the best rifles, 200 yard groups were about 3/4ths inch, at 300 about 1-1/2 inch. At 600 yards, groups were about 2-1/2 inch and at 1000 about 7 to 8 inches. It was not very long before the .30-06 round no longer won matches nor set any records; all it's records were broken by the .308 by a considerable margin. Some accuracy tests at 600 yards with the .308 produced test groups in the 1 to 2 inch range. These were 20 to 40 shot groups. No .30-06 has ever come close to shooting that well.
At 1000 yards, where both the .30-06 and .308 were allowed in Palma matches, the .308 was the clear-cut most accurate of the two. If top shooters felt the .30-06 was a more accurate round, they would have used it - they didn't. In fact by the early 1970s, the scoring ring dimensions on the 800 - 1000 yard target were also cut in about half due to the accuracy of both the .308 Win. over the .30-06 and the .30-.338 over the .300 H&H when used in long range matches.
Most top highpower shooters feel the main reason the .308 is much more accurate than the .30-06 is its shorter, fatter case promotes more uniform and gentle push on the bullet due to a higher loading density (less air space) and a more easily uniformly ignitable powder charge.
Military arsenals who produced match and service ammo in both 7.62mm and 30 caliber have fired thousands of test rounds/groups with both. They also found out that with both ammo types, the smallest groups were with the 7.62 by about 50 to 60 percent. M1 rifles in 7.62 shot about twice as small of groups as .30 M1s at all ranges. When the M14 was first used, there were some .30-06 M1 rifles that would shoot more accurately. It took the service teams several years to perfect the methods of making M14s shoot well, but when they did, they shot as good as M1s in 7.62.
There will always be folks who claim the .30-06 is a more accurate cartridge. All I have to say to them is to properly test .308 vs. .30-06 and find out. Theory is nice to think about; facts determine the truth.
07-10-2011, 06:31 AM
#16
Fork Horn
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 360
The very minute difference in accuracy between the 308 and '06 is too small to even argue over in the real world, which is what we live in. I have a feeling if the time and effort was put into the '06 now, with the new powders available, I bet its a wash. Either way, it has nothing to do with the Rem mag, and the 270.
07-10-2011, 10:56 AM
#18
Fork Horn
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: US South
Posts: 444
I reload and am fine with the 270 bullet choices out there. If you don't reload, finding 270 Winchester cartridges is like going to the grocery store for vanilla ice cream.
07-10-2011, 12:10 PM
#19
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location:
Posts: 5,130
Just as a FYI;
http://elkhunter2.tripod.com/7mm.html
Don't take me wrong; if I was to hunt only whitetails from north to south, east to west.................... I would choose a .270 Win.
http://elkhunter2.tripod.com/7mm.html
Don't take me wrong; if I was to hunt only whitetails from north to south, east to west.................... I would choose a .270 Win.
07-11-2011, 03:51 AM
#20
Typical Buck
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 797
I have two personal favorite calibers one is a 300 win mag and the other is a 270 win. Foremost I prefer accuracy but I'm also a speed man. I guess for intended purposes it isn't fair to compare factory loads to hand loads. But in the defense of the fallen 270 win at ranges of 400 yards or more the .308, 30-06, and the 7mm mag using standard factory ammo are left in the dust compared to my reloads with the 270 win when it comes to trajectory and foot pounds. but is 200 to 400 foot pounds of energy worth arguing over when it comes to long range shooting. In my opinion if your worried about ft lbs at 500yards your playing the wrong game at that range accuracy is everything. But without bullet compensation scopes 6 to 8 inches is a world of difference. Most people don't really shoot over 200yards so in that aspect the advantage does go to the .308 30-06 and the 7mm mag. Intended use is the key to the whole set up. But all this is a personal choice and a personal choice on how to use the gun.
As far as professional competition you can't even compare the 270 win because they don't build the bullets for it. You'd have to slow it down to gain the high BC of the 6.5's and 7mm's but then again those calibers have to slow down too. .308 is a magical little caliber but the 30-06 is just as good. But they too are being over shadowed by the 6.5mm and the 7mm calibers when talking competition shooting. Bullet construction now there's another topic all together.
270, .308, 30-06, and the 7mm mag are all perfect hunting calibers if this was not so they would not have lasted all these decades. Opinions vary but one thing remains the same they still have ammo on the shelf for them.
As far as professional competition you can't even compare the 270 win because they don't build the bullets for it. You'd have to slow it down to gain the high BC of the 6.5's and 7mm's but then again those calibers have to slow down too. .308 is a magical little caliber but the 30-06 is just as good. But they too are being over shadowed by the 6.5mm and the 7mm calibers when talking competition shooting. Bullet construction now there's another topic all together.
270, .308, 30-06, and the 7mm mag are all perfect hunting calibers if this was not so they would not have lasted all these decades. Opinions vary but one thing remains the same they still have ammo on the shelf for them.