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Guns Like firearms themselves, there's a wide variety of opinions on what's the best gun.
View Poll Results: .40 S&W 165gr. or .45 ACP 230gr.
.40 S&W 165gr.
34.00%
.45 ACP 230gr.
66.00%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

.40 S&W or the .45 ACP

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Old 04-12-2011, 09:04 AM
  #61  
Nontypical Buck
 
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Originally Posted by fritz1
That is why I said a "Quality" 1911, not the cheapest based line goverment issued 1911 made with fixed sights, go buy a stock S&W 1911 or similar quality 1911, I will put it up against any stock Glock, Beretta, or Ruger 9mm or 40 S&W or what ever semi auto in those cartidges. And that isnt a opinion, thats a fact!

Hmmm.......

Seems like Dave Sevingy and his Glock are faring pretty well against the 1911's.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_t...evigny_200903/

or here:

http://www.shootingwire.com/story/223212

Last edited by VAhuntr; 04-13-2011 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 04-12-2011, 07:02 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by fritz1
That is why I said a "Quality" 1911, not the cheapest based line goverment issued 1911 made with fixed sights, go buy a stock S&W 1911 or similar quality 1911, I will put it up against any stock Glock, Beretta, or Ruger 9mm or 40 S&W or what ever semi auto in those cartidges. And that isnt a opinion, thats a fact!
Another "fact"? What...in the sense that you'd "put it up against any stock Glock, Beretta, or Ruger 9mm or 40 S&W"? It's generally understood that a "fact" actually involve something performed in the past tense, and your representation of that here doesn't quite meet that standard now, does it?

As a matter of record, I do have a stock SA Mil-Spec, a stock 92FS, and a stock P220 Carry. In my hands, the SA and the Beretta tend to be about equal off a sandbag. Actually having fired the 9mmx19 in anger, I'll take the .45 if I had a choice again. Putting the SA up against the Sig though is a mismatch. I (I say again... "I") obtain better groups (not much, but nonetheless better) with the Sig than I do the SA. No, the Sig doesn't compete with my Wilson, nor should it at less than half the price.

So, does that make it a general "fact" that the stock Sig is more accurate than the stock 1911? YOUR "fact" then goes out the window? Or, is the it more appropriate to say that the only "fact" reflects that I happen to shoot a stock P220 better than I do a stock M1911? Might you obtain different results? Absolutely you may. Does your isolated "fact" change mine if that's the case?

The only other "fact" I'm seeing here in these boards is that you and CLD have very high opinions of the M1911 and, other than your rather exaggerated rhetoric, aren't exacly making a very convincing case of things.

And, now that this thread has been thoroughly hijacked...

.45 ACP 230 gr.

Last edited by homers brother; 04-12-2011 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 04-13-2011, 02:25 PM
  #63  
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Actually HB, I would have to second Colorado's statement with an exception. The standard military issued 1911 was rarely 'accurate'There was simply too much slop in the action.. (Note: One man's accuracy is not anothers'. Is a 1 MOA rilfe considered accurate? Yes to the average hunter, but not good enough for long range competition). However, that being said, a well made production 1911 or a supped up custom job is the most accurate semi auto handguns (as a whole) you can buy. But this forum is not about handgun selection it is about cartridge selection. But because the 1911 and the 45ACP go together like peanut butter and jelly, when the 45 ACP is mentioned, also everyone envisions a 1911.
Now, if I had a choice between a Glock .45 and an Ed Brown 1911, the choice would be a no brainer. The 1911 would probably shoot circles around the best made Glock.

Last edited by bronko22000; 04-13-2011 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 04-14-2011, 08:21 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by homers brother
the price.
The only other "fact" I'm seeing here in these boards is that you and CLD have very high opinions of the M1911 and, other than your rather exaggerated rhetoric, aren't exacly making a very convincing case of things.
I would be willing to bet that you are right. If you were to check you would find no evidence of a 1911 ever winning any kind of competition. If you looked real hard, I'd bet that you would find nothing about the 1911 dominating any kind of competitions. And I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut hole that a 1911 has never had a thing to do with a single military victory in the history of the U.S. Military.

You want to argue about something you already know the answer to and you know I'm right. WTF!!! JEEESH
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Old 04-15-2011, 04:05 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Colorado Luckydog
You want to argue about something you already know the answer to and you know I'm right.
I know you must be the smartest man here on the board, but here's what I know: You could put the most expensive 1911 (or any other weapon or caliber you might champion here) in the hands of a tyro, and it's a hunk of metal - NOTHING MORE. Some of you guys have completely lost sight of the fact that shooting and hunting are SKILLS, not a brand, and not a caliber.

There's another thread here that you participated in where a shooter posted a very impressive "15-round group." Awesome. And then he went on to suggest that I'd just get rid of the black guns I already have and get one like he has that I could do the same. Garbage.

It's time you faced the fact that some of us shoot brands you might not like. Some of us shoot calibers you might not like. Some of us use optics you might not like. And some of us may actually handle them as well or better than do you.

EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT

How did you say it?

Originally Posted by Colorado Luckydog
WTF!!! JEEESH
Get over yourself. You're completely not getting it, there's not much point in continuing this.
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Old 04-15-2011, 05:00 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by homers brother
There's another thread here that you participated in where a shooter posted a very impressive "15-round group." Awesome. And then he went on to suggest that I'd just get rid of the black guns I already have and get one like he has that I could do the same. Garbage.
I like how some of you guys like to put words in my mouth, I never suggested you get rid of your black guns and get one like mine, and I also never said anyone with a Bushmaster could duplicate my group!!! I said that I own and perfer Bushmasters because of the results I get from it, compared to the results I have got from Colt and DPMS. You are right about ONE thing here, It does take SKILL and the RIGHT EQUIPMENT!!! You can have all the skill in the world if you dont have a gun that will do it, you are wasting your time, or vice a versa.

Last edited by fritz1; 04-15-2011 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 04-15-2011, 05:08 AM
  #67  
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Homer you must be dreaming or something. I'm the guy that likes all brands. I've always said on here that I have owned and liked almost every brand of rifle made and I would buy them all again if I got the right deal. You really do try and put words in peoples mouths. All I said was that the 1911 is one of the most accurate pistol ever made. Then you started going off that it's my opinion not fact. I wish I would have just agreed with you and saved us all a lot of typing.

Would you like to know the REAL TRUTH??? I don't shoot a pistol worth a crap. I never have and probably never will. That's why I perfer the shotgun over the pistol.
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Old 04-15-2011, 11:54 AM
  #68  
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Sorry Homer, I don't like to take sides. But I'm afraid CLD is right on this.
From The Sight website on "Why the 1911?" if you want to take the time to read it:
Testimonials:
Jeff Cooper
“The 1911 pistol remains the service pistol of choice in the eyes of those who understand the problem. Back when we audited the FBI academy in 1947, I was told that I ought not to use my pistol in their training program because it was not fair. Maybe the first thing one should demand of his sidearm is that it be unfair.”
— Guns & Ammo, January 2002
Clint Smith On The 1911
“The 1911 remains popular because it’s an efficient tool. In more than 30 years of experience, I’ve met more competent, serious gunmen who carry 1911’s than those who pack any other handgun. They are professionals – policemen, government agents and others who carry handguns daily because the know their live may depend on it…Me? I’ve carried a 1911 every single day for the past 20 years. It’s a very comforting gun to have at your hip. It offers a good, consistent single-action trigger pull and is wonderfully dependable. Because the 1911 is basically a defensive handgun, I’m not concerned about tight groups. I don’t bother with expanding hollowpoints that could cause feeding problems. For absolute reliability, I shoot only high-quality ball ammunition. That big .45 slug doesn’t have to expand to be effective.”
From Guns and Ammo, September, 2001.
Tom Givens, Author and Trainer
As a "fighting" handgun, a properly set up and tuned 1911 has no equal. It has superb ergonomics, redundant safeties, excellent reliability and longevity, and the best trigger action available on any common service pistol. The trigger alone makes it the easiest service pistol to shoot well at speed. My primary handgun every single day, 365 days a year, is a lightly customized 1911.
That said, the 1911 is NOT a gun for the casual user, or what we call NDP's (non-dedicated personnel). The gun was designed when technology was expensive, but skilled labor was not. The exact opposite is true today. A carry 1911 should be gone over by an experienced specialist (Heinie, Burns, Yam, Yost, Garthwaite, etc) and then properly maintained by the end user. The average cop or typical CCW holder would be better served with a Glock or SIG in most cases. If you're willing to spend the money to get a properly set up 1911 and TRAIN with it, then you're not "average".
Last year I took three classes as a student (Taylor, Gonzales, Suarez) and the year before one from Clint Smith. In each of those classes I fired about 800 rounds through my carry 1911 without cleaning it and with zero malfunctions. At the NTI last year, I dropped an impact target with about an eight inch square vital zone at approximately 80 yards, from an awkward position, with one shot from my carry 1911, while being filmed by a TV crew. The superb trigger on my gun made that a lot easier. Since I have a choice in my personal weapons, I choose to carry the system that stacks the odds in my favor. My life is worth the extra expense/effort. YMMV.
Chief Michael King on the M1911
“I've shot EVERYTHING in twenty-five plus years of law enforcement and never found anything I like better.”
Chuck Taylor
“If you’ve heard that Old Ugly is on the way out, you’d better look again, for such is simply untrue; quite the opposite. Everything it has had the capacity to do for the last eight and a half decades remains valid. It thus remains King Of The Hill and will likely continue to do so well into the next millennium. To produce a handgun with better or more practical capabilities will be difficult and perhaps impossible. And I, for one, feel that we can look forward to watching the M1911 continue to dominate the handgun world well into the foreseeable future.”
“So, is there really a "best" pistol? Technically, if we eliminate shooter skill from the equation, yes. When interviewed after the tests, all participants agreed that the big Colt Government .45 (SA) had the best all-around combination of power, "user-friendliness," accuracy and functional reliability, while the Glock M-22 .40 S&W ("semi"- DA) and LW Commander .45 (SA) tied for second. The Browning P-35 9mm (SA) was rated fourth and the Smith & Wesson M-39 9mm (DA) last.”
Officer Lawrence Birch
“Being a police officer, I have always carried a sidearm. For the past 9 years it has been a 9mm S&W. I never liked it and always wanted my 1911 as a sidearm. In 2001, I, along with two other officers took on a tremendous task of selecting a new sidearm for my police department. All of us are partial to the 1911. It was very difficult to be fair and objective in this test. In an age of polymer guns and the 9mm and .40 rage, it was a task to find a suitable sidearm for some 50+ officers. The round was nothing but the .45, and why not? Isn’t that what everything is compared to these days? We shot and tested our guns in a brutally harsh manner, water, sand, mud and pond water rinses, thousands of rounds and a few sessions of "toss the gun at the wall". The four competitors were Glock, Smith, SIG and Para-Ordnance. Only two passed our tests, SIG and Para. In the end, 19 our of 20 police officers picked the Para, the chief went with the choice of the men and now our department carries the Para-Ordnance 14.45 LDA. Our officers qualification scores have risen dramatically and in a since we still carry a piece of history with us wherever we go. If John Browning only knew what a creation he had made.”
Daniel N. Powell, USMC
When I qualified with the 1911 in the Marines, my pistol rattled when I shook it, but it would still put a full magazine into the center of a combat target. Later, when we were issued the M9, none of us could shoot them accurately. Not long after they were issued, the Corps recalled the M9 and re-issued the 1911 for that reason. It wasn't until the Pentagon ordered the Marines to carry the M9 that they were re-issued. However, almost every Marine I encountered carrying a sidearm carried a 1911 in defiance of the order right up until I was discharged in 1991.
Hal Lowder, US Army Military Police Corps
I was very fortunate that when I was deployed to the Persian Gulf that my unit was low on the list to get Beretta's. so I HAD to carry my 1911. It was nice having a functioning sidearm that I didn't have to carry in a plastic sandwich bag like most of the other guys did. And I might add, with no malfunctions. My Remington Rand issue fired every time !!
2LT Robert Wancha, 1776th Military Police Co., Michigan Army National Guard
About 15 years ago my National Guard unit went to qualify with weapons (individual and crew-served). I stepped up to the firing line for qualification and I was handed a very, very old Colt 1911A1. The thing was beat to death, sloppy in fit from years of service, and badly pitted from just as many years of neglect. With a tight annual budget and little money for ammo, we didn't even have the chance to fire a few rounds for familiarization. So at this point having never handled a 1911A1, I started the qualification. I couldn't see where the rounds were striking the target, but I had faith and kept shooting center mass. When the firing stopped, we were told to walk downrange and check our targets. I put them all in a very tight circle in the black. I qualified expert. I could not believe a rattlebox in that state of shape could deliver such performance.
Bob, USN
When I was a young man (19 I believe), I had to apprehend a guy who went berserk and was holding a Navy nurse with a knife to her throat. I fired a round that hit the forearm just above the elbow. The impact spun him around completely and threw him to the ground. It was then that I knew why this piece was the standard issue sidearm. After 40 years, it's still as vivid in my memory as if it has happened yesterday. For me it was a sad day when it was replaced by the 9mm Beretta back in '85.
Martin, US Army
I was an Urban warfare instructor in Berlin, Germany with the Army. There I learned that it [the m1911] is the best pistol for warfare and home defense. We used both .45 cal. Colts and Beretta’s in 9mm. Nearly all instructors praised the 1911A-1. It is a great weapon for urban warfare and home defense.
Jeff Chandler, Movie Actor
A youth spent in New York City, where even admiration for a gun struck terror in the hearts of one’s elders, kept me from gun appreciation for some time. In fact, it wasn’t until I was in the service that I made close contact with firearms. And out of the welter of guns they threw at us, my fondest association was with the Colt.45 Automatic Pistol. It’s a tricky little devil, but has always paralleled, for me, the kind of punch I admire in the ring—short, well-aimed, and devastating.
Cpl. Rick Jakubowski, 31st MEU(SOC),
Experience and practice give DAP Marines the capability to fire three short, two-round bursts at each target they engage, and every member carries a .45-caliber pistol as a secondary weapon because of its high-caliber knockdown power. The handgun normally serves as a backup when there is no time to reload the MP-5. It is also used for accuracy when firing on a 'bad guy' using a civilian as a shield. DAP Marines train extensively with their pistols to expand their skill at accomplishing these difficult shots. Some of the DAP Marines carry 12-gauge shotguns for "minor nuisances" like locked doors.
Bill P., Law Enforcement
Early in my career, probably 27-28 years ago, I was involved in a drug bust/warrant arrest. One of my partners was armed with a Colt .45 1911. Upon entering the apartment of the bad guy and announcing our purpose, the bad guy, who happened to be standing next to an ironing board with a hot iron on it picked up the iron and was about to use it as a weapon when my partner drew the .45, pointed it at the bad guy's chest, saying "Put it down or I'm going to put 5 big ones in the middle of your chest." Needless to say, the bad guy succumbed to the big hole in the end of the Colt.
Rosco S. Benson on rec.guns “Is the 1911 an Outdated Design?”
Of course the 1911 is an outdated design. It came from an era when weapons were designed to win fights, not to avoid product liability lawsuits. It came from an era where it was the norm to learn how your weapon operated and to practice that operation until it became second nature, not to design the piece to the lowest common denominator. It came from an era in which our country tried to supply its fighting men with the best tools possible, unlike today, when our fighting men and women are issued hardware that was adopted because of international deal-making or the fact that the factory is in some well-connected congressman's district. Yes, beyond any shadow of a doubt, the 1911 IS an outdated design....and that's exactly what I love about it.
The gangster era of the 1930s and the two world wars are mythical, archetypal times, and during that time, the "Colt Automatic" was the butt-kicking pistol. There really wasn't any competition over here in auto pistols. Of the great pistols, only the Luger co-existed with the M1911 and they weren't very popular in the States. The Luger was feared and respected, but our lawmen, soldiers and hoods didn't select it to create their legends. I don't know if the Glock or the Beretta will ever get the chance to serve during an era as uniquely suited to the creation of legend and mystique in the way the M1911 did. It's a matter of being in the right place at the right time, and getting the job done when the chips were down.

Last edited by bronko22000; 04-15-2011 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 04-15-2011, 04:06 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by BCRules
Total BS. So, you think a 40S&W is inherently less accurate than a 45ACP.
Actually I do!
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Old 04-16-2011, 05:21 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by fritz1
Actually I do!
I was watching an episode of Gun Talk where they talked about handgun ammo and the calibers available now.

It was rather interesting take on the ammo of today, yesterday, and the guides thoughts on them.

Basically they think that the 45 round has been one of the most efficient and accurate rounds because of how well thought out the design of the round was back in the early days.

It's not that the .40 is bad, it's not the same caliber of ballistics as the 45 (pun intended here). They did make a note of pointing out that the latest 9mm and .40 rounds were very similar in ballistics properties and to choose one or the other wasn't much of a difference.

Now, they didn't say one round was the best. They said the round you can handle, and most importantly, the round you practice shooting from your gun with was the best choice. Assuming one thing, and only one thing, that is that you are using the better rounds from years past or the newer rounds for the older calibers.

The difference in ballistic properties of the original .38 vs the new .38 ones was pretty amazing. Then to go from the new .38 to a round like the .38 +P was rather impressive as well.

Seeing the numbers, and seeing the difference in video, are much different things. I took two things away from that episode. One, go with better ammo, and two, pick a gun that fits you. Some of those pistols are so tiny I'd have problems shooting them.
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