Judson

Oh boy this is too good to leave alone. The reason I mentioned a bigger bullet, .338 or larger is that I do not want a long range flat shooting ultra light for the woods. Light weight and long range accuracy are not good partners. Neither is high velosity and light fast handling a good combo for the thick stuff. I should have added, with lower pressures, in the necking up coment but I screwed up there. If I wanted a fast handling rifle for bear and such in the thick stuff then I also want a bullet with some weight and sectional density not a .270, 7mm or .30 cal of any flavor. If I want a long range rifle for " small" large game then a 7mm or .30 would be fine, if you were picky on the shots, you could handle game up to the 1,000 pound size but that is really stretching it. Oh yes by the way short rifle fans, that short mag necked up would burn all the powder in around a 20" barrel. With the playing around I have done with the .350 mag necked up to .375, and you would have more case capasity with a short mag, you should be well into the 4,000 foot pound class with a .375 now thats a woods hammer!!! As to where I get my pressure info, I read the loading manuels, velosities are also there but in any case with a little math it is not hard to come up with a very close aproximation of what you will get if you know case capasity, bore diameter and bullet weight. Usually you will be very close and in the case of the pressures I mentioned they are from the loading books and SAMI.
True Wally World does not have alot of Ammo but where do you get 6.5 Rem ammo other then old stuff and custom ammo?
Two more things then I will shut up, for now. Giving a rifle away to a kid is somthing very special and I am sure he will never forget the gift nor part with it. Your point about the ammo being different is very true, I do not know how old he is but if he is like my nephew is then you had no choice at all. My nephew shot up all my ammo and his, I had to teach him to reload or go hunting with an empty gun.

Last point, hay take it easy on me, I like to get you guys thinking and the info I put out here on subjects like this is not wrong it is just one side of the coin. Think about it, add it to what you know, make a decision, and never apologize for it. If we had only just what was needed to hunt with and not so many choices what a boring world it would be.

You know you guys are alot of fun, keep it up
Your Friend or Fiend
Jud

bigcountry

Ok, I will take it easy. But disagree about pressures a tad. Got a great friend that gets 3400fps with Re22 and 165 bullistic tip out of his Dan Lilja barrel 300WM. But he is the only person I see that can do this. For 300WM, I load for, most I see is 3250fps before hitting pressure signs. For a rifle I recently got back with a Kreiger barrel, I see pressure signs in almost all near max loads but its faster than other barrels. This barrel or the shorter throat builds pressure quick. I really don' t think you can go too much by the manuels or SAMI. It will get ya in the ballpark and tell ya you need to start about 10% down and work your way up. I don' t think there is too many that will disagree that the WM is faster and in some instances, alot faster than the WSM' s. But I do believe they handle the heavier bullets better than there cousins, 270Win or 30-06. Kinda an in between cartridge at least for the 308 stuff.

Judson

That is what I am trying to tell all of you. If you want the real thing why go for a fax. Memorix is not the real thing!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wait untill Dave gets a hold of you!!!

Judson

OkWoodseye it is sundown at the OK coral. Light rifles can and should shoot as well as the heavy weights, for one shot, or maby two. For hunting rifles who cares? one shot is all that matters. Now let us through in human error, a six pound rifle with a 3 pound trigger pull. Hmmmm A trigger pull that is half the weight of the rifle, now if I had a ten pound rifle with a five pound pull I would not be happy, to heavy pull, not good for accuracy. You see where I am going with this don' t you. Ever see a target shooter with a feather weight? Now I will addmit they do not have to carry a rifle very far but if light weights when you add in the shooter were as accurate as the heavy weights why would they pay for the extra steel? Do not tell me because they heat up slower, that will not cut it I have built these rifles. Yes they heat up slower but take much longer to cool down and heat within reason does not effect accuracy all that much. Barrel whip effects accuracy much more then heat. This is why it is very important to work up a load for your hunting rifle if it is a light weight. The rifles I build will shoot under 1/2" with the proper load, I do not care what the weight. But as the barrel gets lighter whip increases and proper loads become more important. Also as rifles get lighter so must trigger pull, rule of thumb, trigger pull should be 1/3 rifle weight or less. Now on a 6 pound rifle that would be 2 pounds, seems kind of light to me, especially if you got gloves on!
One thing I love about this sight is that I can start you guys thinking and I tell you what I think and I get your imput, that is how we learn!!!

bigbulls

Judson, The old cartriges pressures such as the " regular" magnums and the other older cartriges like the 30-06 and the .270 are listed as Copper units of pressure. The new cartrige pressures, like the WSM' s and the SAUM' s, are listed as PSI. All the reloading info I have says that 52,000 CUP is about maximum for the older cartriges and about 63,000 PSI is maximum for the new cartriges. Up to about 30,000 psi the measurements of cup and psi are about the same and after that they start to spread out and the farther you go up the more they spead out. Now, if I remember correctly, 52,000 cup and 63,000 psi are almost identical pressures but using two completely different tools for measuring these pressures. I have a chart that I am going to look for tomorow that has the two measurements campared to each other. I think it has conversions from one t the other also.

woodseye

No offence taken Jud,hope none given.Debate is what makes these forums so valuable as learning tools and if we all agreed it would get quite boring real fast!I simply make some counterpoints to your short mag points so theres an even mix.Since I' m a hunter multiple shot accuracy is low on my list of importance and a 6 1/2# savage outfitted with ammo,sling,mounts,rings,storm caps,and one of my Conquest scopes tips the scale at about 8# so my 3# triggers aren' t far off at all.This short mag thing will continue for a while yet before they are excepted and theres still some duplication that needs for the buying public to sort out along the way.I hope the 7mm that lasts is the Remington as the 300-270WSM' s are already pulling to the lead and the 338WSM will surely take off likewise for Winchester.I don' t want to see Remington not have a cartridge to keep them in the fray so to speak.I perdict the short mags will be around long after the RUMS are fading away.Interesting post above about different units of pressure measurements huh?

woods

bigcountry

Bigbulls, I thought for sure there was a linear coorilation between CUP and PSI. So for a while, I did a little research. Talked to people at Sierra, and Hodgdon, and they said no. So I was talking to the Mech. Engineers here at work and they said its a logrithmic comparison cause the crushing pressure of copper in an enclosed space with no where to go changes as pressure goes up. They also explained me about the " plastic Region" of materials, where PSI and CUP will start spreading wildly. So you couldn' t put it in a linear fashion to figure it out. It still confuses me a little. So still looking into it.

I really don' t understand why they didn' t put it in a PSI fashion anyway. It was probably difficult to measure pressure 40 years ago accurately in a tight space like a chamber. I guess tranducers wasn' t there at that point..

Judson

There is a big difference between C.U.P. and P.S.I. when you get up there in pressure. The figures I was quoting were all P.S.I. so what I said is based on relivant info. Believe it or not with old black powder cartridges you will often find pressure testing done with a lead " pellet" instead of copper. This is listed as L.U.P. and is encountered in loading tables for such low pressure cartridges as the .577 Snyder, 50-70 and such. The process of testing is the same but copper is to hard to give a reliably reading.

bigbulls

Yeah there is a big difference in pressure after about 30,000. After that psi measurements gain ground faster as far as readings go. If you took the regular 270 winchester and fired a max load you would get about 52,000 c.u.p or about 61,000 p.s.i. Give or take a little. Same would go with the new short mags. They would have the same pressures but depending on what method was used you would get one number or the other.

You' re right in that there is no direct correlation between the two. You would have to fire the same loads out of the same gun and measure pressures with both methods. Then you can write down your readings and see how they compare to each other. As you get higher in pressures the two will spread out more and more.

They use to print it as psi and cup but the psi number was actually wrong as it wasn' t measured correctly. Every one just kind of knew what they were talking about.

bigcountry

What manual are you referring too. The only manual of mine that refers to PSI in the 300WM is my Alliant. All the rest are CUP. Just curious.