knockdown power
01-04-2008, 09:06 AM
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: north florida
Posts: 1,277
knockdown power
I was reading the 243 thread and some guys mention not believing in knockdown power. WTF????I started shooting a .243 when i was 12 but quickly jumped to a .308 just for the knockdown power. On occasion i have went with my younger brother and dad who use .300 win mag and 300 WSM calibers and i was thoroughly impressed with the knockdown power of those calibers also.
Why dont some of you guys believe in knockdown power?
Why dont some of you guys believe in knockdown power?
01-04-2008, 09:28 AM
#2
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,425
RE: knockdown power
On lung shot deer, I see no difference in how far a deer runs no matter if it is shot with a bow, .54 round ball, 12 gauge slug, .243, .260, .270, .280, 30-06, 7mm-08, .308, .270 WSM or .300 Mag...Lung shot deer just seem to run 40-80 yards and expire...You will see more difference in type bullet used and the wound channel than on different calibers...
If you want to drop a deer in it's tracks, take a high shoulder shot (bullet through both shoulder blades) or a neck shot...
One thing to consider, when you hit a deer with a heavily constructed bullet and a cartridge such as a .300 Mag, the bullet exits...In this situation you don't know how much energy you are transferring into the deer as you are dumping energy into the ground on the other side of the deer...So if you have 3.000 ft pounds of energy hit the deer, you may only be dumping 800 pounds into that deer....
If you want to drop a deer in it's tracks, take a high shoulder shot (bullet through both shoulder blades) or a neck shot...
One thing to consider, when you hit a deer with a heavily constructed bullet and a cartridge such as a .300 Mag, the bullet exits...In this situation you don't know how much energy you are transferring into the deer as you are dumping energy into the ground on the other side of the deer...So if you have 3.000 ft pounds of energy hit the deer, you may only be dumping 800 pounds into that deer....
01-04-2008, 10:40 AM
#3
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: knockdown power
Because in essence "knock down" power does not exist. No rifle or handgun can transfer enough energy to actually "knock" a deer or person off from their feet. And no gun actually delivers or transfers the amounts of energy one believes it does. Numbers and math are cool, but just not realistic in most situations. I have seen it demonstrated various times on different objects and game.
I hunted one year with my shotgun using brenneke gold magnums. These are 600 grain slugs that deliver 3,000 ft/lbs of energy at 50 yards. I shot a deer in the vitals at 20 yards. 3,000 ft/lbs into a 175 lb object should have knocked it off it's feet and sent it sliding across the wet grass. Didn't happen, bullet went right through and the deer ran off and died 90 yards away.
Ok, I know what some are thinking, the bullet passed through so it didn't transfer the energy. Well wrap your head around this one then. I also hunt with an inline muzzle loader that uses a 350 grn polymer lead tipped bullet. When sighting in this rifle I shoot into medium sized pieces of fire wood. They probably weigh around 20 lbs. This load on paper carries 2000 ft/lbs of energy at 100 yards. Conventional thinking would lead you to believe this 20 lb chunk of wood would get thrown or at least rolled across the yard when hit at distances from 50 to 100 yards. Guess what, it doesn't even rock and the bullets are not passing through.
Knock down power is a myth, plain and simple.
Shooting a deer with any rifle does not guarantee that deer will drop in its tracks. It has more to do with shot placement and to some degree luck. You can shoot several deer in the same spot with the same cartridge at the same distance and they can all react differently. Some will drop on the spot, others will bolt and run a way, and others still will walk away seeming unaffected until they fall down dead.
Deer die from a gun the same way they will from a bow if shot in the vitals. They expire from blood loss and lack of oxygen the brain. Just because you shoot a deer with a rifle and it drops on the spot does not mean it is dead. It is just stunned by the shock to it's nervous or pulmonary system until it is too late. I have heard of several instances where deer have been shot, drop on the spot, then get up and run a way a few minutes later.
However you didn't physically knock the deer off from it's feet. You simply stunned it causing it to lose control and drop to the ground. Much like you would if you got shocked with an electric stun gun or hit hard in the neck. It disrupts your nervous system and you lose motor control. And just about any center fire rifle with the right bullet and proper shot placement can do this. But none of them can do it consistently every time.
What more energy and momentum will do though is create a bigger wound channel and give you deeper penetration depending on the type of bullet you choose. And this is what kills your deer. At 100-200 yards a 7mm mag is no more effective than a .243 is with a properly placed shot into the vitals or shoulder. Both will provide adequate energy and penetration to destroy the vitals and disrupt the nervous system at those distances. And a wounded gut shot deer is still a wounded deer regardless of the weapon be it a .22 rimfire or a 300 win mag. Larger calibers offer you the advantage of carrying more energy at longer ranges (do to the increased bullet weight) and offering better penetration on larger tougher animals.
Here is some more reading on it if you want to look it over.
The Mechanics of Terminal Ballistics
South Carolina Game study
My opinions anyway.
Paul
I hunted one year with my shotgun using brenneke gold magnums. These are 600 grain slugs that deliver 3,000 ft/lbs of energy at 50 yards. I shot a deer in the vitals at 20 yards. 3,000 ft/lbs into a 175 lb object should have knocked it off it's feet and sent it sliding across the wet grass. Didn't happen, bullet went right through and the deer ran off and died 90 yards away.
Ok, I know what some are thinking, the bullet passed through so it didn't transfer the energy. Well wrap your head around this one then. I also hunt with an inline muzzle loader that uses a 350 grn polymer lead tipped bullet. When sighting in this rifle I shoot into medium sized pieces of fire wood. They probably weigh around 20 lbs. This load on paper carries 2000 ft/lbs of energy at 100 yards. Conventional thinking would lead you to believe this 20 lb chunk of wood would get thrown or at least rolled across the yard when hit at distances from 50 to 100 yards. Guess what, it doesn't even rock and the bullets are not passing through.
Knock down power is a myth, plain and simple.
Shooting a deer with any rifle does not guarantee that deer will drop in its tracks. It has more to do with shot placement and to some degree luck. You can shoot several deer in the same spot with the same cartridge at the same distance and they can all react differently. Some will drop on the spot, others will bolt and run a way, and others still will walk away seeming unaffected until they fall down dead.
Deer die from a gun the same way they will from a bow if shot in the vitals. They expire from blood loss and lack of oxygen the brain. Just because you shoot a deer with a rifle and it drops on the spot does not mean it is dead. It is just stunned by the shock to it's nervous or pulmonary system until it is too late. I have heard of several instances where deer have been shot, drop on the spot, then get up and run a way a few minutes later.
However you didn't physically knock the deer off from it's feet. You simply stunned it causing it to lose control and drop to the ground. Much like you would if you got shocked with an electric stun gun or hit hard in the neck. It disrupts your nervous system and you lose motor control. And just about any center fire rifle with the right bullet and proper shot placement can do this. But none of them can do it consistently every time.
What more energy and momentum will do though is create a bigger wound channel and give you deeper penetration depending on the type of bullet you choose. And this is what kills your deer. At 100-200 yards a 7mm mag is no more effective than a .243 is with a properly placed shot into the vitals or shoulder. Both will provide adequate energy and penetration to destroy the vitals and disrupt the nervous system at those distances. And a wounded gut shot deer is still a wounded deer regardless of the weapon be it a .22 rimfire or a 300 win mag. Larger calibers offer you the advantage of carrying more energy at longer ranges (do to the increased bullet weight) and offering better penetration on larger tougher animals.
Here is some more reading on it if you want to look it over.
The Mechanics of Terminal Ballistics
South Carolina Game study
My opinions anyway.
Paul
01-04-2008, 10:54 AM
#4
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 12,762
RE: knockdown power
I have to agree with Paul on this except for the bow - rifle comparison. An arrow (broadhead tiped) kills by hemmoraging (excuse spelling). A high power centerfire rifle or handgun kills by both hemmoraging and through hydroshock as the bullet passes thrugh the vitals. Sort of like shooting a gallon jug filled with liquid. The amount of shock is determined by the velocity and bullet weight (E=mc2). For example, a 180 gr bullet from a 30-06 will deliver more shock than a muzzleloader shooting a round ball thus causing more tissue damage. That is why if you ever dressed a deer and couldn't find the heart - it literally exploded from the shock and turned to jelly.
But depending on shot placement, I've shot several deer with cartridges like the 243, 7-08, 270 and had them drop where they stood. And I've shot them with a 308, 30-06 and even a 45-70 and had them run a ways before expiring. Shot placement, angle and the individual critter leave you with a lot of variables.
So - Ain't no such thing as knockdown power.
But depending on shot placement, I've shot several deer with cartridges like the 243, 7-08, 270 and had them drop where they stood. And I've shot them with a 308, 30-06 and even a 45-70 and had them run a ways before expiring. Shot placement, angle and the individual critter leave you with a lot of variables.
So - Ain't no such thing as knockdown power.
01-04-2008, 11:16 AM
#5
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: north florida
Posts: 1,277
RE: knockdown power
All energy is not transferred, your right. But some energy is transferred when the deer absorbs the 'shock' of being hit. THIS IS REFERRED TO AS KNOCKDOWN POWER.Why it is referred to as 'knockdown' power, i dont know.
With a larger caliber the surface area of the actual bullet traveling at a high rate of speed creates more of ashock and a larger wound channel.This is knockdown power and it actually shocks the animal's system. I AGREE WITH YOU ON THAT, as that is commonly called knockdown power in the huting worldand measured in lbs/sq. inch. A .243 and a .300 win mag will not have near the same knockdown power at all, butthe .243 will kill deer if the shot placement is right.
I have seen 180 lb bucks that have been spun in a circle as a .30/378 caliber bullet entered the animal. Let me get this correct-Yourargueingkinetic energyis not transferred tothe animal at all?Or the transferred energy is not called knockdown power?
With a larger caliber the surface area of the actual bullet traveling at a high rate of speed creates more of ashock and a larger wound channel.This is knockdown power and it actually shocks the animal's system. I AGREE WITH YOU ON THAT, as that is commonly called knockdown power in the huting worldand measured in lbs/sq. inch. A .243 and a .300 win mag will not have near the same knockdown power at all, butthe .243 will kill deer if the shot placement is right.
I have seen 180 lb bucks that have been spun in a circle as a .30/378 caliber bullet entered the animal. Let me get this correct-Yourargueingkinetic energyis not transferred tothe animal at all?Or the transferred energy is not called knockdown power?
01-04-2008, 11:19 AM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: north florida
Posts: 1,277
RE: knockdown power
Actually i guess all energy would be transferred inballistic tip bullets that dont exit the animal- which would account for more deer dropping in their tracks. I was referring to core lock in the above scenario post. So do you still not believe in knckdown power?
01-04-2008, 11:21 AM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: north florida
Posts: 1,277
RE: knockdown power
ORIGINAL: bronko22000
I have to agree with Paul on this except for the bow - rifle comparison. An arrow (broadhead tiped) kills by hemmoraging (excuse spelling). A high power centerfire rifle or handgun kills by both hemmoraging and through hydroshock as the bullet passes thrugh the vitals. Sort of like shooting a gallon jug filled with liquid. The amount of shock is determined by the velocity and bullet weight (E=mc2). For example, a 180 gr bullet from a 30-06 will deliver more shock than a muzzleloader shooting a round ball thus causing more tissue damage. That is why if you ever dressed a deer and couldn't find the heart - it literally exploded from the shock and turned to jelly.
But depending on shot placement, I've shot several deer with cartridges like the 243, 7-08, 270 and had them drop where they stood. And I've shot them with a 308, 30-06 and even a 45-70 and had them run a ways before expiring. Shot placement, angle and the individual critter leave you with a lot of variables.
So - Ain't no such thing as knockdown power.
I have to agree with Paul on this except for the bow - rifle comparison. An arrow (broadhead tiped) kills by hemmoraging (excuse spelling). A high power centerfire rifle or handgun kills by both hemmoraging and through hydroshock as the bullet passes thrugh the vitals. Sort of like shooting a gallon jug filled with liquid. The amount of shock is determined by the velocity and bullet weight (E=mc2). For example, a 180 gr bullet from a 30-06 will deliver more shock than a muzzleloader shooting a round ball thus causing more tissue damage. That is why if you ever dressed a deer and couldn't find the heart - it literally exploded from the shock and turned to jelly.
But depending on shot placement, I've shot several deer with cartridges like the 243, 7-08, 270 and had them drop where they stood. And I've shot them with a 308, 30-06 and even a 45-70 and had them run a ways before expiring. Shot placement, angle and the individual critter leave you with a lot of variables.
So - Ain't no such thing as knockdown power.
Variables do play into this scenario as with any, its not goin to happen everytime. You have to admit it,your not going to 'hydroshock' a 180 lb. buck from 150 yds to spin in a circle with a .243 caliber......
01-04-2008, 11:44 AM
#8
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 2,435
RE: knockdown power
I think Paul has it right on the money! Here's a little tid bit to add. Remember that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. The total energy available to knock the deer off its feet is no greater than the energy expended driving your rifle or shotgun back against your shoulder.
I think the term knock down power is unfortunate. It implies that the bullet contains the energy to forcibly knock the animal down. That of course is not even close to reality.
Nice job Paul!
I think the term knock down power is unfortunate. It implies that the bullet contains the energy to forcibly knock the animal down. That of course is not even close to reality.
Nice job Paul!
