waiting_for_a_gift

Paul, I think you really explained it well. I think "hydologic shock" is a realistic term. Tissue damage is a factor in rifle kills as well as hemmorage. This year I shot a ~120 lb live weight deer broadside with my .308, 150 gr core locat 20 yards. I hit it squarely behind the shoulder, it collapsed but regained its feet and made a strong 50 yard dash. A friend of mine shot a very large doe with a .300 win mag, 150 grain bullet, broadside, 20 yards, same shot placement, it reacted exactly the same. No exit wound with the .300, yes exit wound with .308. Lotta variables, but knockdown power is not one of them.

CCPaHunter

Rebel
Agreed. I've done the same with my 7MM Mag. It dose make the photo session much easier since all you have to do hold the head up and put the tongue back in. No repositioning the legs and all.

Paul L Mohr

My only comparison bronko is that the deer dies from the same thing in the end regardless of weapon, from loss of blood flow to the brain. I will not argue that a bow and a gun differ in the way they achieve it.

Bryant, what I am saying is that what you think you are seeing is not what you are really seeing in most cases. Very few guns can transfer enough energy to pick a full grown deer up and spin it. When you hit the deer it will buck, jump or even do a flip sometimes. This however is not from the energy of the bullet, but more a muscle response from being hit.

And I will not argue that a 300 win mag won't have a better chance of dropping a deer on the spot than a 22-250 will. Obviously the 300 win mag has the potential to deliver and transfer more energy and thus can make a larger wound channel and create a larger shock wave in the body. However you still need to consider bullet placement and bullet design. If you took a medium bore magnum and shot hard solid bullets out of it it would pass through the animal and transfer a low percentage of energy into the animal, and over a longer duration of time. Now if you used a small bore high velocity round designed to expand better you would actually transfer more energy quicker and do more damage to soft tissue. The difference being you would greatly reduce penetration.

This becomes evident on small critters like woodchucks. Hit one with a standard 30-06 cartridge. Or something bigger like a shotgun slug or muzzle loader bullet and it will kill it, sometimes throwing it on the ground and the bullet will continue to travel after it leaves the animal. Now if you do the same thing with a 22-250 and a light varmint bullet it will literally blow it apart and expend all the energy into the target and the bullet will not continue.

So as you can see velocity and bullet design sort of work together making energy transfer sort of a tricky thing. You need to balance the amount of energy you want to transfer with how much penetration you need.

Paul

Sylvan

A .22 rimfireto the brain will drop a deer instantly...

Paul L Mohr

Actually it may not. I have seen many animals shot in the head or had the head chopped off that continue to move and function just fine for a little while. The best example would be cutting a chickens head off and it still can run around or fly for a while. I have shot many a farm animal in the head growing up and not all of them dropped on the spot.

Chances are if it doesn't drop though it certainly won't go far. That is providing you actually put that tiny bullet in the small hard to reach well encased brain of a deer. What if you miss by a slight amount and end up wounding the deer like blinding it or shooting it's jaw off?

In my opinion head shots on deer are about the worst shot you could take. Better left to poachers and other people that have little regard for the game they hunt.

My opinion anyway.

Paul

Rebel Hog

Some call it Knock DownPower....

Sylvan

I totally agree with you, though my point had nothing to do with whether or not a head shot is a good idea or a high percentage shot. The point is that a .22 rimfire has less kinetic energy than many a compound bow and far far less than even what would be considered a low powered deer rifle yet placed properly it can drop a deer as quickly as any "high powered" rifle.Does that mean it has knock down power? Either it does or putting a deer down quickly is much more a matter of what specific tissue is damaged than it is how much energy was expended to damage those vital parts.

Reb got my drift exactly.

IAhuntr

You seem to be mincing words and termsin the sake of your arguement.

If you were to able to legally shoot a deer in the shoulderwith a 22 rimfire, then shoot a same sized deer in the same location with a traditional 12 gauge slug, the visible difference in the deers physical reacton upon impact would be what is commonly referred to by hunters as 'knockdown power'. Obviously different bullets with varied loads will result in a noticeably different visible impact and physicalreaction of said game. The smaller the size difference between bullets and loads, the smaller the visisble difference in impact reaction.
For a more ethical and much simplerexample, shoot a coffee can with a 22 rimfire, then with the 12 gauge slug. The can will'react' more due to the shock, damage,and movementfrom the slug than from the 22. Call the result whatever you wish, but I'dchoose the slug over the 22 for its ability to effectively inflict damage and displace tissue on its intended target. I'd call it more "knock-down power"!

bryant1

Exactly what i mean, good example. Call it what you want to Paul, i call it knockdown power.

Bocajnala

it's all in the shot placement. You wanna knock a deer down, shoot it in the kneck/shoulder/spine. You want to take the best possible shot? put it right through the vitals.