useing self loaded ammo for self defense
08-19-2007, 06:21 AM
#11
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Texas - BUT NOW in Madison County, NY
Posts: 6,270
RE: useing self loaded ammo for self defense
ORIGINAL: mello_collins
I have heard it can be used against you in court. Like others said it depends where you live. I will always use factory with a sealed primer just to make sure it goes off. I have had less miss fires with factory ammo, but that could be my reloads.
mello
I have heard it can be used against you in court. Like others said it depends where you live. I will always use factory with a sealed primer just to make sure it goes off. I have had less miss fires with factory ammo, but that could be my reloads.
mello
At this point, I am inclined tojust regard it as BS or a fairy tale. Hey! What would they do to you if you used the horrific Winchester Black Talon ammo? Or, worse yet, the dreaded DUM-DUM bullet??
08-19-2007, 06:54 AM
#12
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Comance county, OK
Posts: 11,409
RE: useing self loaded ammo for self defense
"At this point, I am inclined to to regard iut as BS or a fairy tale. Hey!"
This is truly a fairy tale invented by Massad Ayoob. Mas would have been more credible if he had stuck to shooting at bowling pins or just getting drunk. Sheriff Jim Wilson, Handgun Editor of of Shooting Times magazine,has researched this for years. He asked his readers to send him docket numbers of cases where the prosecutor made an issue of hand loaded ammunition. After several years he could not find one case where a prosecutor went after a shooterbecause of the use of hand loaded ammunition.
In theprocess of his research, Sheriff Wilson met a retired federal judge who was researching the same thing. The judge never found even one case where a prosecutor made an issue of the use of hand loaded ammunition in ashooting case.
This is truly a fairy tale invented by Massad Ayoob. Mas would have been more credible if he had stuck to shooting at bowling pins or just getting drunk. Sheriff Jim Wilson, Handgun Editor of of Shooting Times magazine,has researched this for years. He asked his readers to send him docket numbers of cases where the prosecutor made an issue of hand loaded ammunition. After several years he could not find one case where a prosecutor went after a shooterbecause of the use of hand loaded ammunition.
In theprocess of his research, Sheriff Wilson met a retired federal judge who was researching the same thing. The judge never found even one case where a prosecutor made an issue of the use of hand loaded ammunition in ashooting case.
08-19-2007, 08:22 AM
#13
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Texas - BUT NOW in Madison County, NY
Posts: 6,270
RE: useing self loaded ammo for self defense
ORIGINAL: falcon
"At this point, I am inclined to to regard iut as BS or a fairy tale. Hey!"
This is truly a fairy tale invented by Massad Ayoob. Mas would have been more credible if he had stuck to shooting at bowling pins or just getting drunk. Sheriff Jim Wilson, Handgun Editor of of Shooting Times magazine,has researched this for years. He asked his readers to send him docket numbers of cases where the prosecutor made an issue of hand loaded ammunition. After several years he could not find one case where a prosecutor went after a shooterbecause of the use of hand loaded ammunition.
In theprocess of his research, Sheriff Wilson met a retired federal judge who was researching the same thing. The judge never found even one case where a prosecutor made an issue of the use of hand loaded ammunition in ashooting case.
"At this point, I am inclined to to regard iut as BS or a fairy tale. Hey!"
This is truly a fairy tale invented by Massad Ayoob. Mas would have been more credible if he had stuck to shooting at bowling pins or just getting drunk. Sheriff Jim Wilson, Handgun Editor of of Shooting Times magazine,has researched this for years. He asked his readers to send him docket numbers of cases where the prosecutor made an issue of hand loaded ammunition. After several years he could not find one case where a prosecutor went after a shooterbecause of the use of hand loaded ammunition.
In theprocess of his research, Sheriff Wilson met a retired federal judge who was researching the same thing. The judge never found even one case where a prosecutor made an issue of the use of hand loaded ammunition in ashooting case.
08-19-2007, 08:31 PM
#14
Typical Buck
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Wide open Nevada
Posts: 515
RE: useing self loaded ammo for self defense
I read a similar artical in Handgunner magazine that was by an atterny in Fla.that had been party to a suit filed in civil court against a defendse shooter that used handloads . He lost the suit and paid ,seems like , 30k. because the dead home invaders atty. made a case of the delibertly more leathal hand loads . Not in jail but paying just the same .
08-19-2007, 09:07 PM
#15
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wall SD USA & Jamestown ND
Posts: 11,474
RE: using self loaded ammo for self defense
There have been many articles written by a couple guys connected to the Evans Marshal reports and some well know writers who serve as expert for the defense in shooting cases. Jan Liberel or something like that being one of them. It has long been recommended that you not use Handloads for defense work. They say that if possible carry the same load used by LE and FBI agents for defense. I have always held by this notion and hope to never have to test the theory. However one should always stack everything he can in his favor. There are some excellent factory loads available. use them.
08-19-2007, 09:54 PM
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: useing self loaded ammo for self defense
ORIGINAL: eldeguello
Kinda amusing what some people will believe, based on nothing more than hearsay (a 'crapper rumor")!!
ORIGINAL: falcon
"At this point, I am inclined to to regard iut as BS or a fairy tale. Hey!"
This is truly a fairy tale invented by Massad Ayoob. Mas would have been more credible if he had stuck to shooting at bowling pins or just getting drunk. Sheriff Jim Wilson, Handgun Editor of of Shooting Times magazine,has researched this for years. He asked his readers to send him docket numbers of cases where the prosecutor made an issue of hand loaded ammunition. After several years he could not find one case where a prosecutor went after a shooterbecause of the use of hand loaded ammunition.
In theprocess of his research, Sheriff Wilson met a retired federal judge who was researching the same thing. The judge never found even one case where a prosecutor made an issue of the use of hand loaded ammunition in ashooting case.
"At this point, I am inclined to to regard iut as BS or a fairy tale. Hey!"
This is truly a fairy tale invented by Massad Ayoob. Mas would have been more credible if he had stuck to shooting at bowling pins or just getting drunk. Sheriff Jim Wilson, Handgun Editor of of Shooting Times magazine,has researched this for years. He asked his readers to send him docket numbers of cases where the prosecutor made an issue of hand loaded ammunition. After several years he could not find one case where a prosecutor went after a shooterbecause of the use of hand loaded ammunition.
In theprocess of his research, Sheriff Wilson met a retired federal judge who was researching the same thing. The judge never found even one case where a prosecutor made an issue of the use of hand loaded ammunition in ashooting case.
08-19-2007, 11:48 PM
#17
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location:
Posts: 583
RE: useing self loaded ammo for self defense
[/quote]
FROM: eldequello
I have heard this too, and I have also heard just the opposite! I have NEVER HEARD of an actual case in which a person who acted in self-defense was ever prosecuted BASED ON THE TYPE OF AMMUNITION THAT THE PERSON USED. I would like for someone to cite an actual case.
[/quote]
Ok, so there might or might not be truth to the being porsecuted for using handloads. We all might be taking a partial truth and getting it twisted just a little. You might not go to jail over the use of a handload, but is it possible that a HANDLOAD can be used against you in a CIVIL SUIT brought BY THE DEAD GUYS FAMILY for WRONGFUL DEATH.Self defense in my book is not wrongful death, butseemsa lot of people arekinda sue happy anymore.
I'm just as guilty for getting on this wagon as the next guy.
The more i think back to the magazine article i read, I am inclined to think that it wasn;t a case of the guy being prosecuted for the ammo choice, it was a civil suit from the family that called the ammo choice into question. I know that this case happend. It was not over handloads. A guy shot an inturder with Federal Hydroshocks. The family sued for wrongful death. The basis was that the hydroshock was purposly used for it's killling power. The family thought that if he used something different, their guy wouldstill be alive. Thegunowner called the state police to the witness stand and asked them WHAT THEY CARRIED. Police issue for the was the exact same round. The case was thrown out, since that was the basis of the suit. I believe this case happend in PA. Can't remember for sure though.
THE MORAL: no, you will probably not get prosecuted and or face jail time over a handload. the issue remains if you kill the guy, the family can take you to court for wrongful death. And alot of families will depsite their loved one being the criminal, illegally in your house, maybe even armed. IF THIS HAPPENS, YOU WILL FARE BETTER IN CIVIL COURT IF YOU CARRY THE SAME AMMO AS YOUR LOCAL POLICE. A good attorney in a civil case will make issue of a handload. Some of you think that is total BS, and that is fine. Me, I will play it safe and not worry about it.
FROM: eldequello
I have heard this too, and I have also heard just the opposite! I have NEVER HEARD of an actual case in which a person who acted in self-defense was ever prosecuted BASED ON THE TYPE OF AMMUNITION THAT THE PERSON USED. I would like for someone to cite an actual case.
[/quote]
Ok, so there might or might not be truth to the being porsecuted for using handloads. We all might be taking a partial truth and getting it twisted just a little. You might not go to jail over the use of a handload, but is it possible that a HANDLOAD can be used against you in a CIVIL SUIT brought BY THE DEAD GUYS FAMILY for WRONGFUL DEATH.Self defense in my book is not wrongful death, butseemsa lot of people arekinda sue happy anymore.
I'm just as guilty for getting on this wagon as the next guy.
The more i think back to the magazine article i read, I am inclined to think that it wasn;t a case of the guy being prosecuted for the ammo choice, it was a civil suit from the family that called the ammo choice into question. I know that this case happend. It was not over handloads. A guy shot an inturder with Federal Hydroshocks. The family sued for wrongful death. The basis was that the hydroshock was purposly used for it's killling power. The family thought that if he used something different, their guy wouldstill be alive. Thegunowner called the state police to the witness stand and asked them WHAT THEY CARRIED. Police issue for the was the exact same round. The case was thrown out, since that was the basis of the suit. I believe this case happend in PA. Can't remember for sure though.
THE MORAL: no, you will probably not get prosecuted and or face jail time over a handload. the issue remains if you kill the guy, the family can take you to court for wrongful death. And alot of families will depsite their loved one being the criminal, illegally in your house, maybe even armed. IF THIS HAPPENS, YOU WILL FARE BETTER IN CIVIL COURT IF YOU CARRY THE SAME AMMO AS YOUR LOCAL POLICE. A good attorney in a civil case will make issue of a handload. Some of you think that is total BS, and that is fine. Me, I will play it safe and not worry about it.
08-20-2007, 05:19 AM
#18
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Comance county, OK
Posts: 11,409
RE: useing self loaded ammo for self defense
"if you kill the guy, the family can take you to court for wrongful death."
This is true in the nanny states of the NE US. This is not true in OK and several other states. Here in OK the family of thedeceased perp is not allowed to sue in civil court for a righteous shooting.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/10/31/nburg231.xml
"In those few seconds Dr Sommer, 66, had been plunged into a case that changed the law in Oklahoma and may yet influence a change in the law in Britain. Within weeks of the incident, the Oklahoma state government passed legislation that became known as the Make My Day Law, named for the celebrated scene in the Clint Eastwood Dirty Harry film.
The law was pushed through by Sen Charles Ford, a Republican, the opposition party in the state. "The purpose of the law is to protect the victim of crime who defends his home and his family against unlawful intrusion from any criminal prosecution or civil action," Sen Ford said last week.
"We considered it outrageous that someone who protects his home and family should suffer. Our law says you can use any force, including deadly force, to defend your home."
It has been an unqualified success. Since the Make My Day Law came into force, burglary has declined by almost half in Oklahoma. In 1987, there were 58,333 cases; in 2000, just 31,661.
While crime rates throughout America fell in the 1990s, Make My Day supporters point to a second statistic in Oklahoma they say proves the impact of the new law: while burglary rates plunged, other forms of theft stayed constant. In 1988, there were 96,418 cases, in 2000, 96,111."
This is true in the nanny states of the NE US. This is not true in OK and several other states. Here in OK the family of thedeceased perp is not allowed to sue in civil court for a righteous shooting.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/10/31/nburg231.xml
"In those few seconds Dr Sommer, 66, had been plunged into a case that changed the law in Oklahoma and may yet influence a change in the law in Britain. Within weeks of the incident, the Oklahoma state government passed legislation that became known as the Make My Day Law, named for the celebrated scene in the Clint Eastwood Dirty Harry film.
The law was pushed through by Sen Charles Ford, a Republican, the opposition party in the state. "The purpose of the law is to protect the victim of crime who defends his home and his family against unlawful intrusion from any criminal prosecution or civil action," Sen Ford said last week.
"We considered it outrageous that someone who protects his home and family should suffer. Our law says you can use any force, including deadly force, to defend your home."
It has been an unqualified success. Since the Make My Day Law came into force, burglary has declined by almost half in Oklahoma. In 1987, there were 58,333 cases; in 2000, just 31,661.
While crime rates throughout America fell in the 1990s, Make My Day supporters point to a second statistic in Oklahoma they say proves the impact of the new law: while burglary rates plunged, other forms of theft stayed constant. In 1988, there were 96,418 cases, in 2000, 96,111."
08-20-2007, 07:21 AM
#19
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location:
Posts: 583
RE: useing self loaded ammo for self defense
Sorry guys,
I didn't mean to imply that you can get sued in all states for this, but there are some. I might be wrong, but I think there are more than not. Either way. It never hurts to cover your butt a little more. Be safe out there, and hopefully, none of us ever have to find out the ahard way what the local law is
I didn't mean to imply that you can get sued in all states for this, but there are some. I might be wrong, but I think there are more than not. Either way. It never hurts to cover your butt a little more. Be safe out there, and hopefully, none of us ever have to find out the ahard way what the local law is
08-20-2007, 08:25 AM
#20
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Republic of Texas
Posts: 12,177
RE: useing self loaded ammo for self defense
I would think that, as long as your loads are within SAAMI specs,there shouldn't be any question about the ammo you used.
My defense rounds would be the same that I shoot in competitions. 200 gr solid, on top of 4.3 grs. of 700-X. The load makes about 840 fps out of my P14's. This load is well under SAAMI maximums, and uses a non-expanding bullet. But, I figure that, with a .45ACP, you don't really need much expansion to take care of business.
My defense rounds would be the same that I shoot in competitions. 200 gr solid, on top of 4.3 grs. of 700-X. The load makes about 840 fps out of my P14's. This load is well under SAAMI maximums, and uses a non-expanding bullet. But, I figure that, with a .45ACP, you don't really need much expansion to take care of business.