SwampCollie

Young gun;

Study a few pictures of whitetail deer, espeically ones that offer cut-a-ways of the vitals. There is a spot at the base of the neck where the spine takes a dip before going up towards the head. Its basically right behind the shoulder blade, or right at the front edge of it if the deer is dead broadside to you. I shoot right at the front of the scapula and the deer go down back end first and lay where they stood. Use a bonded or copper bullet for good measure, but I have never had one go more than about 3 yards, and that was just from a back flip! Best place to shoot a deer with a rifle...no tracking required.

younggun308

So you mean, shoot at the base of the neck, in front of the shoulder? I believe that shot is commonly used on does? Isn't it? What if it's a buck and I want to mount it? I believe the shot would ruin it?

I'm not sure I know what your're talking about, do you think you could post a pic?

Here's one:

[align=center][/align][align=center][/align][align=center][/align][align=center][/align][align=left]The only dip I see is after the shoulder blade, is that what you're talking about?[/align][align=left][/align][align=left]Would it ruin taxidermy?[/align]

SwampCollie

Nope, won't ruin taxidermy at all. Unles you are getting the whole front half of the deer mounted, feet and all. Right where I am talking about is exactly where the front of the shoulder is in the picture you provided. If you wait until the spinal cord pops up, thats about where you want to shoot. Right on that blue line, leading edge of the shoulder. Keep in mind that with bonded or copper solid bullets, your entry and exit holes won't be much larger than a sharpie, but there will be an exit hole!

younggun308

What's an expample of a copper bonded bullet that you're talking about?

Is it Nosler Partition, or Core-Lokt, Barnes TSX, or something else?

It can't be anything with an "Anything Tip" (Silvertip, Ballistic Tip, etc.), Right?

nchawkeye

I'm not sure which Vital Shock loading you are talking about...Federal loads several different bullets in their Premium line, I can tell you that any deer hit properly with any .30 caliber 150 gr factory loading that is intended for big game will not go far...And......In the .308 and the 7mm-08 I have actually seen excellent preformance on deer with the ballistic tip bullets....Where hunters have problems is when they push these bullets faster than their intended use....Both the .308 and 7mm-08 come out of the barrel at about 2850 fps with a 150 and a 140 gr bullet, perfect for good ballistic tip performance....

The shot Swamp is talking about is a good one, I take it on deer that are quartering towards me...When taking neck shot I hold at the base of the neck, that area does not move when the deer raises and lowers its head....

If I need to drop a deer, I usually take that low neck shot, or a high shoulder shot, a high shoulder shot is through both shoulder blades, and the bullet passes through the spinal cord, so the deer drops....Folks talk about needing "premium" or "bonded" bullets for these type shots, that's just not the case.....Maybe if you are shooting a 22-250, then you do need a bullet like a Nosler Partition, but no with a normal deer rifle....

I have taken at least 150 deer with a .243....I have used the following bullets...

100gr Remington CoreLokt... 100 gr Remington Premier SPBT
85gr Federal Premium HPBT...100 gr Federal Premium Nosler Partition
100gr Federal Premium Sierra SPBT...100gr Federal HotCore SP
100gr Wichester Supreme PowerPoint...100gr Winchester PoserPoint
100gr Hornady Custom InterLock...100gr Nitrex SP

Some of these loading were "Premium" and some were not....They all worked and during my research I killed at least 8 deer with each so I could compare wound channels....Every one of these bullets were sutiable for deer....Deer actually ran less on lung shots when I used the "softer" bullets over the harder....Actually the worst performance was from the hardest bullet in the buch...The Remington Premiers...Lung shot deer ran 85-125 yards, fortunately Remington does not load these anymore..I did find it interesting that a plain old CoreLokt was more effective than a bullet that they were selling as "Premium", makes my wonder who was doing their research.....

While I'm at it....The CoreLokt, Hornady and the Federal Premium 85gr and 100gr Sierra put lung shot deer down faster than the 100gr Nosler Partition....So a "premium" bullet is not always the best choice for whitetail deer hunting.......

Rammer

I almost always shoot ballistic tips or Hornady SSTs at deer and I always aim right for the top half the heart. I have never not had an exit hole and I've only had one deer that moved after impact. This is from shooting them with a 243, 300 sav, 308, 30-06, 7mag, 270.

I suggest trying a box of ballistic tips. I bet you will love how they shoot, and their performance on deer sized game is phenemonal.

You also won't get any deformed tips in your magazine, which will happen with a soft point type bullet with the 308s recoil.

James B

Good choice. I like the Ballistic tip and the Sierra Pro-Hunters.

Doe Dumper

James you like anything that goes boom when ya drop the hammer...

devinbajus

If the power-shoks shoot good out of your gun stick with them they will work awsome on whitetail.

SwampCollie

Sorry it took a while to get a response in younggun.

An example of a copper bonded, or more accurately a bonded or bonded jacket bullet would bullets like Nosler's Accubond (duh..right), Federal Fusion, Swift A-Frames and Scicrocco's, Speer Trophy Bonded or Remington's Premier Core-Lokt Bonded just to name a few. Basically, rather than just pouring lead into a copper jacket, which stays together only by maintaining shape, the lead and copper in the bonded bullet are acctually fused together on the molecular level to create one solid piece of bullet. While it still expands, it just doesn't expand as fast. They are, as often advertised, designed primarily for big and tough game that calls for more penetration.

Conversely, a bullet like Nosler's Ballistic tip, the standard Core-Lokt, the Win Power-Point, and the Sierra Game King are not bonded chemically, but the lead is "held" in place by a thicker belt, so to speak, around the center of the bullet which in effect, locks the core in place...hence..."core-locked". The jacket is also tapered, and since copper is much harder than lead, it does not expand or deform as easily. This aids in slowing down the bullet's expansion...or controling it. The Ballistic tip, is really more of a hollow point bullet than a soft point of course. While the design is similar, a BT has the plastic tip that aids in aerodynamics, making it much more accurate. The plastic gives way very easily and then the bullet expands violently, just like a hollow point. The soft points expands a bit more slowly, but the idea is still the same...if you look at the copper jacket...its just a lead tipped hollow point. They are made for medium and light game (varmints) but are dead reliable for expanding at long range (ie: low velocities).

A kissing cousin of this design is what I call the H-frame style, most exactly represented by the Nosler Partition. It has a solid belt of copper which separates an expandable front portion of lead/copper (not bonded) with a rear slug of copper enclosed lead that stops expansion and acts almost like a battering ram to drive the bullet through whatever stands in the way. The partition did (and does) what the bonded bullets do, and that is expand slowly and penetrate very well, only this was before chemical fusing in projectiles. The Partition is a fairly old design, and it still works very well.

Then you have a few hybrids. One of which being the Winchester Fail Safe. This bullet is built "backwards" compared to the other designs in that the lead is back, while placing all the copper up front. Think of a Partition with no lead up front. There was a light lead channel, which helped aid in expanding. The bullet was very difficult and expensive to build...but...it did as the name implies and it expanded very well. Last I had heard, it was on the way off the market to be replaced by the new Winchester XP3, which is a plastic tipped, copper front with a rear tungsten core. Again, complex and expensive...but dead reliable.

Lastly, you have the all copper bullets and the copper solids, which are acctually pretty different, but I'll explain them together. The all copper expandables (like the TSX and the original Barnes X-Bullet and XLC) don't have any lead in them at all. Rather, they have a light tip which is channeled at the front and will start to open on impact (not that the others don't). There is typically light scoring on the inside of the bullet, which aids in expansion and causes that lovely four leaf clover design you'll see in the picture, or on a recovered bullet. The copper solids are lead filled, bell shaped chunks of copper that do not expand at all. They are for the very biggest of game...or in the militaries case, FMJs that do not expand per the Geneva Accords. Also, they are used as target/match ammo. WHile I have put them together with the expandable coppers, they are really night and day of each other.

Historically....bullets were all lead, or lead solids, while the copper solids do not expand, the lead solids (since lead is much softer than copper) deform on impact, which makes them in effect much like an expandable...only they were not quite as reliable when it came to expanding.

Here is a picture (or links rather) that show some comparisions, the first is a comparision of the Ballistic Tip and the Partition, note the partition has that "H-Frame" of copper with lead on either side, and also note the tapered jacket on the Ballistic Tip...getting thicker as it gets closer to the back of the bullet.

http://www.weatherby.com/_images/pro...r_tip_part.jpg

Here is a Swift A-Frame, which is one bad to the bone bullet for big game. Note that its looks a heck of a lot like the Partition...only....the jacket and core are acctually fused together...so it stays together much better for more penetration and weight retention...not really something you can see...but its there.

http://www.eabco.com/images/swiftbulleta-frame.gif

Here we have the Hybrids...the fail safe, followed by the new XP3.

http://www.winchester.com/images/Pro...atalog/sfs.jpg

http://www.nrapublications.org/TAR/images/XP3a.jpg

Here is the all copper Barnes TSX...my choice for dang near everything. But thats just me...

http://www.huntingmag.com/guns_loads/HMbul_0905_B.jpg

Here is one last link that shows several different types and has a short review of each. Just a good way to see the guts of what you might be shooting.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...%3Den%26sa%3DG

Hope this was at least somewhat helpful for you younggun, as well as anyone who might have been a bit in the dark about bullet design and construction...I'm no engineer, but hopefully having it condensed will help everyone better understand their options