SwampCollie

The recent post about "bullistics" brought out some very well spoken and well founded observations. I'd like to stir the pot a bit and throw out some opinions, observations and questions from my own experiences. Read on....

Watching various bullet impacts etc on high speed, you cannot discredit 100% of the "shock" theory. Much like someone getting punched, there is force transfered in any impact. However, exactly what can that force do with regards to "killing" an impacted animal???

I have noticed in the field that when you shoot a deer in a given spot, lets say behind the shoulder,each deer will react very differently to that impact than others do, all things being equal but the individual animal. I will personally vouch that if I were shot in the chest with a well constructed, modern hunting round of any decent caliber, you would certainly not have to trail me AT ALL. I suppose it is the thought that wild animals do not feel sorry for themselves and process pain (and perhaps even death) much differently than humans do.

What I am stabbing at here is this: Could the impact of a bullet, nervous system disconnect not withstanding, acctually have enough of an "emotional" effect on an animal that it would not run after being hit? I use the word emotional in leiu of a better term for what I am tryingto say. I'll put it another way...

Say you were playing football and took a shoulder to the low chest and got the wind knocked out of you (arid deprevation). The only thing you can think about is "Oh crap, I can't breathe" and no matter how tough you are, your animal instict takes over and pretty much paralyses you until you can regain control of your breathing. Could this be why a deer will hit the deck but still kick and struggle, despite having the physical ability to run (meaning nerve connections, four legs etc etc)? Sort of like an injuredplayer rolls side to side on the ground? It's clearly not the "nerves" dying off like what happens with a head or spinal shot.

Or, if you do cause enough trauma to the lungs, could the deer lose enough blood in that one instant to sufficently lower its blood pressure enough to make it "pass out", and then quickly bleed out in turn? We have all seen the sort of bloodied up jelly (essentially massive internal bruising/bleeding) that is caused by a bullets path, is this trauma sufficient to lower the blood pressure enough to cause the animal to "faint"? Or could that instant expansion of the lungs, like we have seen ballistics gel do for just a split second, rupture enough blood vessels to do it? Is all of that "bloodied/bruised" tissue even caused by a trauma or "shockwave" or is it just accumulated cottorized blood seeping towards the leak? Is that trauma of sorts enough to cause nerve disconnects and essentially stop operation of the rest of the body, despite the spinal cord remaininly intact? What sort of damage can this so called "shockwave" really do?

There are a couple of different thoughts, opinons and observations above and hopefully everyone can understand enough of my babble to give some insight and thoughts based on your own experiences.

JagMagMan

SC, I think I understand your questions, but what you have to realize is that other than Adrenalin, a deer (other animals too) have built-in instincts! Some deer that I have tracked, you would just wonder how they kept going! A human would probably given up and died long before a deer will!

Most deer that "drop" are hit in the spine, brain, or double shoulder. Very-well hit heart/lung shots are DOA, but they usually are going on a "death-run," 10 yards, to well over a 100 yards. Think about it, how far can a dead deer run in 2 or 3 seconds!

James B

You are probably at least partyly on the right track with the blood pressure loss. Also the blood carries oxegen to the brain and that function can be interupted. The artical I read by Jim Carmicheal where they studied the effects of a bullet that stuck while the heart valve was open went into that kind of stuff. I can't recall how long ago I read that but they were talking about just that difference in reaction to bullet hits. Like why does one animal drop in its tracks with certain hits while the next animal hit in the same place may run off before it falls. This heart valve thing is what their studies came up with.

As also was stated here, spine and brain shots are usually instant death or at least put them down to stay. Nothing seems to do this faster than a hit above the front shoulder blade and right under the spine. A second shot may be required but it put them on the ground to stay. I use that shot at times if I feel that I must stop the animal in its tracks for any reason.

I would guess that by contacting Jim Carmicheal at Outdoor Life Magazine, a guy might be able to get a copy of that artical. Its interesting if a guy likes to know what makes things happen.

shepdogwv

why is that with the shot right above the shoulder blade and under the spine? I just shot a doe saturday like that and it put it down instantly but I had to wait a few minutes before it died for good (after the dang thing flopped around and made it into a gully I had to get it out of first). There was a whole bunch of blood, more than usual, when I gutted it.

SwampCollie

I think you may have been just a touch off on your placement. I have found the greatest no tracking required success by shooting directly through the front of the scapula. The spine dips between the shoulders before entering the neck. This shot takes out both shoulders and the spine. Basically, you are slashing the tires and busting the drive shaft. I have never had a deer so much as roll over when hit in that spot. I did manage to hit one shoulder and the spin at an odd angle (almost facing me) and had the deer do a half gainer and light on its head.

James:

The open/closed heart valve is certainly something to consider. Sounds like that may very well be the difference in one going poof and one going for a wind sprint. If do stumble across the article, please to post up or shoot me a link in a PM.

Solitary Man

I quite pondering these things a long time ago since there is no definitive answer to what causes one deer to drop instantly and the other to run 40 or 50 yards. The only thing I need to know is that a deer hit with a decent bullet in the right place will die shortly thereafter. If he drops on the spot, fine. If he manages to make it another 50 yards, that's okay too. I've never lost a deer yet, or had one go very far, when hit in the heart/lungs area.

James B

Some people like me can't help pondering trhese things. I guess I am a born student of the Game. I like the boiler room shot but where I hunt, sometimes you need to put an animal down where they stand or risk having them get into cover thats nearly impossible to Navagate. Thats when I take the high shoulder shot.

I will try to find that artical again.

BrutalAttack

That article was in a 2003 Outdoor life IIRC. They did it on a buffalo culling operation. That's about all I can remember. I have the magazine here somewhere but I"m scared to look for it.

zrexpilot

could be as simple as getting the wind knocked out of you.Maybe some dont get the wind knocked out and some do.Deer that drop from a lung shot are not dead yet, but inabout 5 to 10 seconds they will be. Bullets do have some energy but the 2000 ft/lbs is a load of crap. A bullet will not move 2000 lbs one ft. bullest strike with around the force of a fist or a fastball. There is something definately being transfered, and this usually occurswith the faster you push the bullet. I shot a rabbit with my .22 hornet and literally exploded, fire the same 45 gr bullet at .22 LR speeds and it wont do that.

James B

You have to remember that the bullet is nowhere near a foot. You must take the area of the bullet into account.