Quilly

i was wondering yesterday as i was waiting to get on a roof at my job...

if you have one caliber ( lets say 30-06sprg ) and you hit the deer in the same spot. would a 150gr. nosler partition bullet kill a deer faster than a 180gr. nosler partition? i was thinking maybe the 150gr. cause it would cause more hydrostatic shock cause of the faster bullet ripping into the deer than the 180gr. now like i said the same exact spot ( lung shot ) with both size bullets.

what do you all think?

Mykey

I like the lighter bullet myself. I use to shoot 150 and 180grn bullets in my 30.06 but now shoot 130grn and i've killed more deer dead in their tracks with the 130 than the other two. I don't know if it's because the bullet is traveling faster or not but hey it works for me.

LARRY338

Interesting question. Im not sure that bullets of similar construction would show one killing any faster than the other. Of course there isnt any way to test that theory. I personally think the hydrostatic shock thing is mostly hogwash. Its my belief that destruction of tissue and bone is what kills deer. Im sure the shock has some effect, but I just dont think it is the primary factor in killing. If we're talking about conventional lead core designs, and similar velocity ranges, the bigger bullet gets my vote primarily because it will dig in deeper and destroy more of the critter's parts.But your example of a 3006 with 150 and 180 gr bullets might actually show more tissue destruction with the lighter bullet since both of them would penetrate completely on the shot you described, and the lighter bullet would have higher velocity and more violent expansion. It seems to me that the really tough bullets like barnes x , failsafe, and bonded cores and the like work better, that is kill quicker at higher velocities. Who knows? I think we need to shoot about 100 deer with every bullet made and keep careful notes. Then we still wont have an answer. Its always shot placement that becomes the deciding factor. Thats the one variable you always have control of too. If you want your deer to die in his tracks the broadside lung shot wont always do it no matter what kind of bullet you use. I guess my answer is "I dont know". Another thing you can never know is whether or not its easier to kill a deer that is relaxed or excited. One that is full of adrenilin might not go down so quickly. This is one of those topics that can be categorized as "significant, but meaningless" heh heh, Maybe some others here have more decided opinions about this.

oldelkhunter

Quilly, Like Larry said if you got 100 deer that were wired exactly the same and responded the same and you hit to within .001 of the aiming point on all 100 deer with the same bullets you would have a leg to stand on and say that this bullet did this when it hit the deer in that spot. I think in that situation a 150 partition would be better than a 180 partition because there is less resistance in a deer that weighs 100-250 lbs than there is in a 800 lb elk or a 1200 lb moose..You would want a quick opening bullet. Want to drop one on the spot shoot it close and hit the shoulder(wasting meat in the process) or attempt a neck shot(TV guys do this all the time) and risk wounding a deer and making it suffer a painful death. Shooting deer anyway with a 270 win they usually drop in a heap with cheap 130 grain Corelockts then when I use a 300 mag on them with 180 hornady bullets they run off to the races and drop 100 yards away. MOst of the time I shoot relaxed deer so I don't know what gives sometimes either.

mello_collins

http://www.mindspring.com/~ulfhere/b.../wounding.html
take a look

Hydro hog wash! The only time this really has an effect is if the pressure wave affects the spine causing temporary paralysis or death. The paralyzed ones some times get back up but, most of the time bleed out and die before they get the chance.

Mike

bigcountry

mello is obviously not a muzzleload hunter or bowhunter. If he was an did an extensive amount of he would definately see the effects of hydrostatic shock. Exit wounds don't show half the story. My 50 cal muzzleloader makes a nice entrance and exit hole with a big ole heavey 300gr bullet moving around 1400fps, but isn't near as devastating as hitting an animal with a tiny .270Win 130gr traveling at 3000fps. Why, hydrostatic shock. The shear velocity rips thru the lungs, kidneys, liver, everything. And if he was a bowhunter, he would have spend hours tracking deer that was hit perfectly with these nasy broadheads with 1.5" of cutting diameter clipping the heart wondering how in the world this animal made it 500 yards. He would then realize that an arrow kills by hemorrhaging to death instead of the hydrostatic shock a 22-250 could do to a deer.

Quilly ,IMO, and its only opinion, I pick the bullet for the animal. For the calibers I got, I will pick the fastest wieght bullet that I know can penetrate all the way thru so I have an exit hole and may have to account for the occasional shoulder shot. So I won't use a 150gr bullet for deer in my 270Win. But I also won't use a 100gr due to past experience with a shoulder shot that didn't go well. So I have the balance of diameter, speed and penetration to get the job done. Then I factory in a nice mushroom. I am not big on bullistic Tips because they kill on a little different concept than the partitions. And sometimes I don't get that exit that I like in mean terrain where you need a nice blood trail. I have used them, and they work fine. Mello, I am not attacking you, just don't agree. These are just opinions from real life personal experiences, not what I read in Guns and Ammo or from some webpage, that has no credibility from what I read and are just opinions like I am giving. So I hope you don't take offense to my post.

Edited by - bigcountry on 11/20/2002 10:06:02

Edited by - bigcountry on 11/20/2002 10:17:25

mello_collins

bigcountry

Sorry, but I think we are closer to the same page than you think. Follow the posted link when you have time for a long read. Displacement of elastic tissue by the pressure wave of a high-speed projectile does have an effect. Just not the way people think. Take a look at some gel test in slow motion and you’ll see what I mean. As the bullet passes through the gel a massive cavity is opened and then collapses immediately to the actual residual wound channel. The same happens to the organs of the dear. They are pushed away form the path of the bullet. The extent of their elasticity and resiliency determines their damage. The shape of the projectile also comes into play. A pointed FMJ’s shock wave is small and causes less tissue ripping, thus easier to repair (Geneva). A high speed (blunt nose expansion with follow through) perfect heart-lung shot leaves almost no recognizable lungs yet a torn or punctured heart. Different tissues act and react differently to stretching. This causes dramatic hemorrhaging resulting in the loss of conscious and death. Muzzleloaders and broad heads don’t cause tissue damage and rapid blood lose the same way. Hemorrhaging is still the cause of death just at different rates. Me 200grn 35rem short-range 115grn bonded core 25-06 long range. I believe in exit holes since they make tracking easier, even with perfect shots deer sometimes run. Ballistic tips cause a lot of “hydrostatic shock” but I’ve seen deer run from a 300Magnum with a ballistic tip that would have dropped quicker with a 30-06 psp because of penetration at the angle of the shot. I’ve helped clean a lot of deer and in my opinion there is no better teacher that a good hands-on dissection.


Mike

PS: Sorry about the rant by I hate the term “hydrostatic” misnomer like military intelligence. By def. Hydro means fluid or mobile and static means solid or unmovable

mello_collins

Whoops! Looks like you were editing while I was typing. Good luck this weekend.

150 or 180? Both are deer are dead, let them decide.

Mike


http://www.mindspring.com/~ulfhere/b...ame_study.html


Edited by - mello_collins on 11/20/2002 11:22:07

BT

to some exten neather and both.
lighter rounds do kill well and so do larger rounds.
you have to factor in bullet disine,weight,speed,section density, and penertration.
if light fast bullets were the best killers we would all hunt deer with some thing like a 220S.

ex a 220s 55gr moving 3170fps @100yd E @ 100yd is 1364 comped to a 45-70 405gr moving at 1168 fps and a E of 1227.
now the 220 is faster and has more Flbs of energy. is it a better killer of big game than the 45-70. i dont think so.
i would take the slow heavy over light and fast any day. from the game i have shot the heavy does better.

and yes i would take the 30-30 over a 243 any day of the week.
L. O. D. Charter member and L.O.S.

bigcountry

Well, let me take my foot out of my mouth. But it does sound like you are saying there is no such thing as hydroshock in your post until you read it real close. Anyway, now I know what you mean now, sorry. When I first started muzzleload hunting years ago, I was so excited about shooting that big hung of lead into a deer. Then I was shocked when it ran forever. I was thinking of wieght of lead, and that big bang. So learned that way.