New toy, H&R Ultra Slug
08-18-2005, 12:04 PM
#11
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: New toy, H&R Ultra Slug
I would say close to the 12, it really depends on the ammo you use. You wold have to study the ammo and see how accurately the rifle shoots it. From what I can see most of the new slug offerings in a good rifled barrel are as good if not a tad better than an Inline muzzle loader. I would say 150 easy with the right load if it shot accurately. I would for sure shoot it at that distance to see how it groups and find the actual amount of drop for your set up.
I know I asked at the gun shop if there was a big difference between the 12 and the 20. They said not really and most prefered the 20 over the 12 slightly. From what I can see from the research I have done lately the 20 guage may be a bit more accurate. That is not a given however. They will probably have less recoil depending on weight as well.
Had they not had a used a 12 guage deluxe for $219 I would have gotten the plain jane 20 gauge ultra slug instead. It was about the same price. 12 guage has more ammo offerings currently and might be easier to find in a pinch as well.
It's a nice gun when you find the right load. Mine didn't like the lightfields at all, but most others seem to have great luck with them.
Paul
I know I asked at the gun shop if there was a big difference between the 12 and the 20. They said not really and most prefered the 20 over the 12 slightly. From what I can see from the research I have done lately the 20 guage may be a bit more accurate. That is not a given however. They will probably have less recoil depending on weight as well.
Had they not had a used a 12 guage deluxe for $219 I would have gotten the plain jane 20 gauge ultra slug instead. It was about the same price. 12 guage has more ammo offerings currently and might be easier to find in a pinch as well.
It's a nice gun when you find the right load. Mine didn't like the lightfields at all, but most others seem to have great luck with them.
Paul
08-18-2005, 12:55 PM
#13
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: New toy, H&R Ultra Slug
I almost bought some while I was there. I am tempted to shoot a 3" magnum turkey load with 2 ounces of shot out of it just to see what it would do compared to my mossberg. They darn near nocked me over with the mossberg and it had a ported barrel.
The recoil is not anything I can't manage. I was just stating that the 400 grn winchesters had more kick than the heavier lightfields did. Neither were 3 inch loads, but they were not low brass either. I kind of wonder when I hear people talk about recoil. Most women are bigger than me and I don't have any trouble shooting a 30-06 or 3 1/2 magnum turkey load with a good recoil pad. I shot about 7 rounds yesterday and my shoulder never hurt. The gun does jump up alot though. I use one those plastic bench buddy rests and it will lift right off the table when I squeeze off a round. If there is anything in the little trays it usually flies out during the shot.
I will state that I don't care much for shooting 3 or 3 1/2 inch turkey loads though, they are a bit abusive. I have never hurt myself shooting them though. I used to shoot 3 inch shells in my little H&R 20 gauge when I was a kid. I only weighed like 90 lbs then, never had any trouble that either. And that gun was pretty light. I did shoot a 30-06 remington pump once that kicked so hard I thought my teeth would bleed. Sort of depends on the rifle I guess.
Paul
The recoil is not anything I can't manage. I was just stating that the 400 grn winchesters had more kick than the heavier lightfields did. Neither were 3 inch loads, but they were not low brass either. I kind of wonder when I hear people talk about recoil. Most women are bigger than me and I don't have any trouble shooting a 30-06 or 3 1/2 magnum turkey load with a good recoil pad. I shot about 7 rounds yesterday and my shoulder never hurt. The gun does jump up alot though. I use one those plastic bench buddy rests and it will lift right off the table when I squeeze off a round. If there is anything in the little trays it usually flies out during the shot.
I will state that I don't care much for shooting 3 or 3 1/2 inch turkey loads though, they are a bit abusive. I have never hurt myself shooting them though. I used to shoot 3 inch shells in my little H&R 20 gauge when I was a kid. I only weighed like 90 lbs then, never had any trouble that either. And that gun was pretty light. I did shoot a 30-06 remington pump once that kicked so hard I thought my teeth would bleed. Sort of depends on the rifle I guess.
Paul
08-18-2005, 06:01 PM
#14
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 1,233
RE: New toy, H&R Ultra Slug
Mine did fairly well at 50 yards and was 2 inches high just like they suggest. I moved back to 100 yards and the next shot was about 4 or 5 inches high? Come to find out the gun does not group that well at 100 yards with this ammo. Maybe 4 inches or so, and most of the shots were high.
First, I would not use the bi-pod for sighting in the gun. If don't plan on hunting with it, don't sight in with it.
Second, using the bi-pod while sighting is most likely causing the gun to bounce as you are not shooting off a soft rest. A reasonably soft rest is critical when trying to establish a "true" POI with a shotgun due to its increased recoil.
Third, make sure you are firmly holding the forearm down and pulling slightly backwards into your shooting position. This is once again key to reducing muzzle jump.
Remember sighting in a slug gun requires a different shooting technique from the rest. It is not the same as sighting in a rifle due to the extremely heavy recoil and relatively slow velocity of the slugs........
Here is separate piece on popular slugs I had posted elswhere that may be helpful as well...
There seems to be three or four favorites that will shoot in any gun. Ideally you get lucky and the one with the best ballistics performance also happens to give your gun the best accuracy.
The top four are:
Winchester Partition gold
Lightfield Hybrid Exp
Remmington Copper Solid
Remmington Core Lokts
In terms of down range performance, they rank from best to worst:
1).Remington Core Lokt Ultra's/ Winchester Partitions
2).Remington Copper solids
3).Lightfields Exp
To give an idea of how far behind the Core Lokts/Partions the Lightfields are think about this fact.
12 ga Remington Core Lokt sighted 2 in high at 50 yds = 0 inches at 150 yds
12 ga Lightfield Exp sighted 2 in high at 50 yds = -9.7 inches at 150 yds
The top four are:
Winchester Partition gold
Lightfield Hybrid Exp
Remmington Copper Solid
Remmington Core Lokts
In terms of down range performance, they rank from best to worst:
1).Remington Core Lokt Ultra's/ Winchester Partitions
2).Remington Copper solids
3).Lightfields Exp
To give an idea of how far behind the Core Lokts/Partions the Lightfields are think about this fact.
12 ga Remington Core Lokt sighted 2 in high at 50 yds = 0 inches at 150 yds
12 ga Lightfield Exp sighted 2 in high at 50 yds = -9.7 inches at 150 yds
08-18-2005, 06:35 PM
#15
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Darien, IL
Posts: 6,744
RE: New toy, H&R Ultra Slug
I think it might be time for Uncle to try those Core Lokt. 2" high @ 50 and dead on at 150? Trajectory like that would surely take alot of Kentucky math out of the shot.
Probobly $16-18/box, right?
Probobly $16-18/box, right?
08-18-2005, 06:58 PM
#16
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 1,233
RE: New toy, H&R Ultra Slug
NO....I usually order online and pay 12$ tops.
Here they are at Bass Pro.....11.99$
http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catalog.TextId?hvarTarget=search&hvarTextId=48 918&hvarAID=froogle&cm_ven=Performics& cm_cat=Search&cm_pla=I%2Dsearch%20%28Froogle%2 9&cm_ite=DDI%20link
Here they are at Bass Pro.....11.99$
http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catalog.TextId?hvarTarget=search&hvarTextId=48 918&hvarAID=froogle&cm_ven=Performics& cm_cat=Search&cm_pla=I%2Dsearch%20%28Froogle%2 9&cm_ite=DDI%20link
08-18-2005, 07:34 PM
#17
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: New toy, H&R Ultra Slug
I didn't sight it in with the bipod, I used a rest. I actually think this is more common than people think. That is why I have said before sighting in for 100 yards at 50 yards is foolish without checking how the gun impacts at that yardarge. Your adjustments are just not as fine at 50 yards as they will be at a longer range. That is a perfect example of why not to do that. I have seen it before. Just because a gun shoots well at 50 yards does not mean it will shoot well or impact correctly at twice the distance. You need to shoot it and see. Once I sighted in at 100 it was indeed about 2 inches high at 50. However sighting in at 50 alone did not give me an accurate enough adjustment to compensate for the longer range. I believe scope parallax plays a role in this sometimes as well if you don't have a scope that is parallax adjustable. Rarely is a fixed parallax scope parallax free at both 50 and 100 yards.
I tried the same thing with my .17 and my muzzle loader. I sighted dead on at 50 yards and then moved the target back to beyond 100 yards. I had to do some fine tuning to the scope to get the windage and elevation perfect. When I moved back to 50 again it was still dead on. (actually the ranges were different because of the ballistics and sight in distance, but the point is still the same.) Niether was this far off, however they grouped much better and didn't have nearly the drop. I think if the lightfields would have grouped better out of my gun things would not have been that bad. I think if you did this with a rifle that shot better with the lightfields your results would be better. It is the same way with archery. You can set your windage at 20 yards, but when you move to farther distances you need to tweak the sights or rest to fine tune it. When you move back up to 20 it will still be the same. I always fine tune my sight at the farthest distance I can group well.
I don't think this gun recoils any harder than my muzzle loader or most centerfires I have shot, so I don't see why it should be shot any different. And I was taught that pulling the butt into your shoulder was improper shooting form and actually increases felt recoil because you are not relaxed while you are shooting. I have found it to be true for myself. I know a lot of shooters that would dissagree with you about holding the forearm down and pulling the gun tight into your shoulder. You should not try to control the muzzle. You should let it do what it wants when it fires. The bullet is gone before the muzzle flips. Proper form and follow thru is just as important with rifles and handguns as it is with archery in my opinion. If that system works well for you though that's great, however I shoot much better the way I was trained to shoot. Not that I don't apreciate the advice, we will just have to agree to dissagree on shooting styles.
And I haven't shot a rifle yet that impacted different with a bipod vrs a rest. I won't be using the bipod on this gun for deer though. I just put it on there because I thought it looked neat. I shoot from a blind with a large window sill I use as a rest. I've been thinking about getting the same rifle in .243 or something and wanted to see what it would look like with it on there. I did shoot a few times at 100 yards with the bipod though and it impacted in the same spot, as does my inline with the same bipod. I have never had a problem with impact points shifting from one type of rest to another as long as the shot was executed properly.
Paul
I tried the same thing with my .17 and my muzzle loader. I sighted dead on at 50 yards and then moved the target back to beyond 100 yards. I had to do some fine tuning to the scope to get the windage and elevation perfect. When I moved back to 50 again it was still dead on. (actually the ranges were different because of the ballistics and sight in distance, but the point is still the same.) Niether was this far off, however they grouped much better and didn't have nearly the drop. I think if the lightfields would have grouped better out of my gun things would not have been that bad. I think if you did this with a rifle that shot better with the lightfields your results would be better. It is the same way with archery. You can set your windage at 20 yards, but when you move to farther distances you need to tweak the sights or rest to fine tune it. When you move back up to 20 it will still be the same. I always fine tune my sight at the farthest distance I can group well.
I don't think this gun recoils any harder than my muzzle loader or most centerfires I have shot, so I don't see why it should be shot any different. And I was taught that pulling the butt into your shoulder was improper shooting form and actually increases felt recoil because you are not relaxed while you are shooting. I have found it to be true for myself. I know a lot of shooters that would dissagree with you about holding the forearm down and pulling the gun tight into your shoulder. You should not try to control the muzzle. You should let it do what it wants when it fires. The bullet is gone before the muzzle flips. Proper form and follow thru is just as important with rifles and handguns as it is with archery in my opinion. If that system works well for you though that's great, however I shoot much better the way I was trained to shoot. Not that I don't apreciate the advice, we will just have to agree to dissagree on shooting styles.
And I haven't shot a rifle yet that impacted different with a bipod vrs a rest. I won't be using the bipod on this gun for deer though. I just put it on there because I thought it looked neat. I shoot from a blind with a large window sill I use as a rest. I've been thinking about getting the same rifle in .243 or something and wanted to see what it would look like with it on there. I did shoot a few times at 100 yards with the bipod though and it impacted in the same spot, as does my inline with the same bipod. I have never had a problem with impact points shifting from one type of rest to another as long as the shot was executed properly.
Paul
08-18-2005, 08:04 PM
#18
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 1,233
RE: New toy, H&R Ultra Slug
Sorry Paul,
You are factually wrong on many accounts..
You are not simply disagreeing with me... you are also disagreeing with one of the worlds foremost experts on shotgun sabot technology, as well as themost repected custom slug gun produce, and custom rifle maker, who also happens to produce the test guns for sabot manufacturers such as Remington, a man who has actual test shotthousands..yes thousands of lightfields in a single day....Randy Fritz...owner of Tar hunt..and Lightfield....
You are factually wrong on many accounts..
You are not simply disagreeing with me... you are also disagreeing with one of the worlds foremost experts on shotgun sabot technology, as well as themost repected custom slug gun produce, and custom rifle maker, who also happens to produce the test guns for sabot manufacturers such as Remington, a man who has actual test shotthousands..yes thousands of lightfields in a single day....Randy Fritz...owner of Tar hunt..and Lightfield....
Although Tar-Hunt rifled slug guns perform similarly to rifles, they are not rifles and cannot be zeroed as if they were. Even the fastest slug is significantly slower than the typical rifle bullet. It is therefore extremely important to apply back-pressure to the forend of the stock with your left hand while you are shooting. Not doing so will result in the barrel of your slug gun jumping into the air off of the front rest, moving your point of aim and ruining your shot before the slug even has a chance to exit the barrel
Let's say you have zeroed your gun in this manner at 100 yards, adjusting into your scope setting this muzzle jump as well as windage error. While in the field you shoot at a deer at 100 yards while holding onto the forend of your gun's stock. Your shot hits low or, most likely, misses completely. Most would tend to blame the gun or the ammunition, when in reality methodology is the real culprit. Think about it! Learn to properly set up your equipment and you can be confident in your shot when the time comes.
"The technique required to reproducibly shoot tight slug groupings is unlike that required to be a proficient with a rifle," stated Randy Fritz as he proceeded to drive his point home with a demonstration. Shooting Lightfield Commander 3" slugs through one of his custom Tar-Hunt slug guns Randy proceeded to coax five slugs in a row through the same hole at 50 yards. He then turned the bench over to a self-proclaimed 'good shot' who fired his best five shots but could only muster a 4 inch grouping at the same 50 yard target.
What was the difference? Both shooters were using the exact same gun, the exact same lot of Lightfield sabot slugs and were firing under the same conditions, but one was driving nails and the other couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. The difference was in their shooting technique. A person can purchase the most expensive state-of-the-art slug gun and fire the best saboted slugs money can buy, but if that person doesn't know and hasn't practiced proper slug gun shooting technique all the dollars invested will have been for naught.
What was the difference? Both shooters were using the exact same gun, the exact same lot of Lightfield sabot slugs and were firing under the same conditions, but one was driving nails and the other couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. The difference was in their shooting technique. A person can purchase the most expensive state-of-the-art slug gun and fire the best saboted slugs money can buy, but if that person doesn't know and hasn't practiced proper slug gun shooting technique all the dollars invested will have been for naught.
Adjust the position of your gun as it sits in the forend and butt rests so that without having to touch the firearm the sight picture is dead on your target. Slide your body into shooting position without disturbing this sight picture. Begin applying shoulder pressure to the butt of the gun and offset any forward gun movement by pulling straight back with your right hand in trigger squeezing position...........
With your left hand on the forend of the gun's stock, pull firmly straight back and down at a 45-degree angle.......
Hold this pressure on the gun as you concentrate on keeping the crosshairs fixed dead on your target. Squeeze the trigger gently straight back until the gun fires. It is common for a shooter to anticipate the gun blast as well as the recoil, but both should come as a complete surprise when a perfect shot is made.
With your left hand on the forend of the gun's stock, pull firmly straight back and down at a 45-degree angle.......
Hold this pressure on the gun as you concentrate on keeping the crosshairs fixed dead on your target. Squeeze the trigger gently straight back until the gun fires. It is common for a shooter to anticipate the gun blast as well as the recoil, but both should come as a complete surprise when a perfect shot is made.
Keep in mind that 60% of your overall group size can be directly attributed to inconsistent left hand pressure.
Slug guns must be zeroed (sighted-in) at a distance where the slug will impact the target while still in the supersonic phase of its flight. Most slugs become subsonic, travelling less than 1220 feet per second, slightly beyond a muzzle distance of 50 yards, thus making 50 yards the ideal zeroing distance. Zeroing at 50 yards also cuts down, by approximately 60%, the chance of adjusting windage error into your scope setting.
A common shortcut taken by a majority of shooters is the attempt to zero their guns at 100 yards. This is a serious mistake as several significant factors come into play that will prevent an accurate zero at this distance in all cases. When zeroing a slug gun at 100 yards only, you never know how much windage is turned into your scope setting. Your gun becomes effectively sighted in for that day's wind only, and your point of zero will be as much as 6 inches off of where it should be.
Zero your gun at 50 yards, 2-3/4" high of absolute dead center on your target...no left, no right, simply 2-3/4" high. You will then be dead-on zeroed at 100 yards because gravity will see to it. Check trajectory data for the brand of ammunition you are shooting and adjust the height of your 2-3/4" 50 yard true zero as necessary so as to produce a dead-on gravity zero at 100 yards.
A common shortcut taken by a majority of shooters is the attempt to zero their guns at 100 yards. This is a serious mistake as several significant factors come into play that will prevent an accurate zero at this distance in all cases. When zeroing a slug gun at 100 yards only, you never know how much windage is turned into your scope setting. Your gun becomes effectively sighted in for that day's wind only, and your point of zero will be as much as 6 inches off of where it should be.
Zero your gun at 50 yards, 2-3/4" high of absolute dead center on your target...no left, no right, simply 2-3/4" high. You will then be dead-on zeroed at 100 yards because gravity will see to it. Check trajectory data for the brand of ammunition you are shooting and adjust the height of your 2-3/4" 50 yard true zero as necessary so as to produce a dead-on gravity zero at 100 yards.
08-18-2005, 08:51 PM
#19
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: New toy, H&R Ultra Slug
Sounds like a bunch of crap to me, I don't care who wrote it. I have read lots of missleading and flat out wrong stuff in magazines and the such. I have not shot a rifle yet be it centerfire, rimfire, muzzle loader or slug gun that defied physics and required a different shooting style. Now shooting shot at a moving target is a bit different and requires a different technique.
I see none of the problems they list shooting any gun the way I was trained to shoot. While this is the first rifled slug gun I have owned it is by far the first I have shot or helped someone set up. It does not matter what speed the bullet is traveling, the muzzle flips after the bullet leaves the barrel, so it can not impart anything onto the accuracy of it. Now barrel flex can, but that is a matter of finding the correct load for the barrel. You are much better off shooting relaxed and executing proper follow thru after the shot. If you are trying to hold onto or pull the gun you will subconciously do something before the shot and it can effect your shot. And it is very hard to repeat it shot after shot. In your theory if you did not have consistant grip pressure from shot to shot your accuracy would suffer and the impact points would change. Again, it is the same with archery, but to a larger degree. This is why a suprise release or a good trigger on a gun is so much more accurate. It is also why target shooters dry fire so often. You should not anticipate the shot, it should just happen.
If what you stated was true then none of the rifles I have owned or my friends weapons would shoot worth a darn or be consistant. Well I can assure you that is not the case at all. You can promote as much theory as you want on the subject, but in the real world that just isn't the case. And from what I can see Tar Hunt is just a waste of money. There are slug guns right off the shelf that can shoot just as well with the right ammo, a 200 dollar H&R being one of them. My guess would be if you have trouble with inconsitant shooting you either need to work on your load some, your rifle has a problem, or you just can't shoot consistantly.
I can't begin to tell you the amount of subsonic weapons I have fired and none of them required a different shooting technique.
If you don't agree with me that is fine, it is your perogitive. However you will not convince me that I am wrong, so don't bother. Recoil does not make a difference and neither does the speed of the projectile as long is it stays stable in flight. I have fired large bore subsonic rifles and pistols as well as high velocity ones very accurately from the bench and off hand, and I only weighed 90 lbs, I only weigh 130 now. I can assure you it does not effect accuracy unless you anticipate it and screw the shot up before you pull the trigger. You should be able to lay a gun in a rest and pull the trigger without touching the rest of the rifle and it should impact in the same place as if you were holding it on sand bags or off the ground, even off hand if you can hold steady enough. If it doesn't then YOU are doing something wrong or you should to see how the weapon is assembled. I haven't seen a weapon yet that would not do it.
There is nothing you can say or link to that will change what I have actually done and witnessed for myself.
Paul
I see none of the problems they list shooting any gun the way I was trained to shoot. While this is the first rifled slug gun I have owned it is by far the first I have shot or helped someone set up. It does not matter what speed the bullet is traveling, the muzzle flips after the bullet leaves the barrel, so it can not impart anything onto the accuracy of it. Now barrel flex can, but that is a matter of finding the correct load for the barrel. You are much better off shooting relaxed and executing proper follow thru after the shot. If you are trying to hold onto or pull the gun you will subconciously do something before the shot and it can effect your shot. And it is very hard to repeat it shot after shot. In your theory if you did not have consistant grip pressure from shot to shot your accuracy would suffer and the impact points would change. Again, it is the same with archery, but to a larger degree. This is why a suprise release or a good trigger on a gun is so much more accurate. It is also why target shooters dry fire so often. You should not anticipate the shot, it should just happen.
If what you stated was true then none of the rifles I have owned or my friends weapons would shoot worth a darn or be consistant. Well I can assure you that is not the case at all. You can promote as much theory as you want on the subject, but in the real world that just isn't the case. And from what I can see Tar Hunt is just a waste of money. There are slug guns right off the shelf that can shoot just as well with the right ammo, a 200 dollar H&R being one of them. My guess would be if you have trouble with inconsitant shooting you either need to work on your load some, your rifle has a problem, or you just can't shoot consistantly.
I can't begin to tell you the amount of subsonic weapons I have fired and none of them required a different shooting technique.
If you don't agree with me that is fine, it is your perogitive. However you will not convince me that I am wrong, so don't bother. Recoil does not make a difference and neither does the speed of the projectile as long is it stays stable in flight. I have fired large bore subsonic rifles and pistols as well as high velocity ones very accurately from the bench and off hand, and I only weighed 90 lbs, I only weigh 130 now. I can assure you it does not effect accuracy unless you anticipate it and screw the shot up before you pull the trigger. You should be able to lay a gun in a rest and pull the trigger without touching the rest of the rifle and it should impact in the same place as if you were holding it on sand bags or off the ground, even off hand if you can hold steady enough. If it doesn't then YOU are doing something wrong or you should to see how the weapon is assembled. I haven't seen a weapon yet that would not do it.
There is nothing you can say or link to that will change what I have actually done and witnessed for myself.
Paul
08-18-2005, 08:56 PM
#20
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Darien, IL
Posts: 6,744
RE: New toy, H&R Ultra Slug
Beings how you're in the quoting mood jc.....................
jcchartboy:
Whoa! Hold on there! That came so quick I didn't have time to pull my waders all the way up.
Let's see here, I'll try some math..........
figuring its dark for about 9 hours a day, thats............
24 hours - 9 hours = 15 hours
and at some time during the 15 hour day a guys gotta eat and well, ya know..........
15 hours - 2 hours = 13 hours
each hour consists of 60 minutes each...............
13 hours X 60 minutes = 780 minutes
I believe "thousands means more than a single thousand so on the low side say 2000...
2000 divided by 780 = 2.564102564 shots fired per minute
(a shot every 23.4 seconds)
The barrel(s) would be glowing!
NO ONE HAS SHOULDERS OF CONCRETE.
Make sure I get proper credit for my quotes.
jcchartboy:
a man who has actual test shot thousands..yes thousands of lightfields in a single day...
Let's see here, I'll try some math..........
figuring its dark for about 9 hours a day, thats............
24 hours - 9 hours = 15 hours
and at some time during the 15 hour day a guys gotta eat and well, ya know..........
15 hours - 2 hours = 13 hours
each hour consists of 60 minutes each...............
13 hours X 60 minutes = 780 minutes
I believe "thousands means more than a single thousand so on the low side say 2000...
2000 divided by 780 = 2.564102564 shots fired per minute
(a shot every 23.4 seconds)
The barrel(s) would be glowing!
NO ONE HAS SHOULDERS OF CONCRETE.
Make sure I get proper credit for my quotes.