strange slug issue
08-03-2005, 06:29 PM
#31
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: strange slug issue
That would hold true with just about anything. If you sight in with a cross wind it will effect point of impact, duh. I wouldn't however say that sighting in at 50 yards would be more precise, just the opposite in my opinion. Easier, yes, more precise, probably not. If you sighted in with a strong cross wind at 50 yards, then shot at 100 yards on a calm day I bet it would off as well at 100 yards.
My suggestion is to sight in on a calm day at the yardage you want to zero at. If you can't do that then sighting high at 50 would work. Like they say though, I would for sure check it at longer yardages. Too many see this and just sight in at 50 yards never shooting to see what happens at 100. They just assume everything will be ok. Chances are it might not even group well enough to effectively hunt at that distance. This is somehting I would like to know before I shoot at live game, not after.
I do sort of see thier point though. I thought with the heavier bullet it would buck the wind a bit better. I show around 6 or 7 inches of drift with a 10 mph cross wind. I also show it being about 2 inches off 50 yards. That is fairly significant. More than I would have suspected actually. That would be enough for me to limit my shots to 75 yards and in with that ammo. I mean the wind is pretty much always blowing in the winter here.
I'd try the hornady 300 grn sabots and see what happens. They put you right up their with Inline muzzle loader performance.
Paul
My suggestion is to sight in on a calm day at the yardage you want to zero at. If you can't do that then sighting high at 50 would work. Like they say though, I would for sure check it at longer yardages. Too many see this and just sight in at 50 yards never shooting to see what happens at 100. They just assume everything will be ok. Chances are it might not even group well enough to effectively hunt at that distance. This is somehting I would like to know before I shoot at live game, not after.
I do sort of see thier point though. I thought with the heavier bullet it would buck the wind a bit better. I show around 6 or 7 inches of drift with a 10 mph cross wind. I also show it being about 2 inches off 50 yards. That is fairly significant. More than I would have suspected actually. That would be enough for me to limit my shots to 75 yards and in with that ammo. I mean the wind is pretty much always blowing in the winter here.
I'd try the hornady 300 grn sabots and see what happens. They put you right up their with Inline muzzle loader performance.
Paul
08-04-2005, 07:09 AM
#32
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 1,233
RE: strange slug issue
I'd try the hornady 300 grn sabots and see what happens. They put you right up their with Inline muzzle loader performance.
Not only do they not, they likely will not shoot well in a large number of rifled slug guns. That list would include Savage 210's, Mossberg 695, and any other guns with a rifle twist slower than 1-32.
Here is review of the SST I wrote a few weeks ago...
The SST'sare an off shoot of the development of the H2K. The H2K contained a 250gr xtp. These new Sabots contain 300gr SST's instead. (My experience with the H2K was disappointing, although they were in the top of class in terms of trajectory they were very erradic as far as accuracy, often throwing random flyers).
TRAJECTORY...
They do not shoot any flatter than the current topperformingSabots on the market. The advertising for the trajectory ismisleading. They quote the trajectory from (-.09in) at the barrel, (if you figure out how to accomplish that let me know). Even with the extra inch they are dead on at 150 and -6.7in at 200 To you and me in the real world that means -7.6inlow at 200.
TRAJECTORY COMPARISON...
The flatest consistent competitor to the Hornady SST would be the Remmington Core Lokt Ultra's.They are once again misleading in their advertisement of trajectory. They qoute their trajectory from -1.5in at thebarrel. These sabots areare dead on at 150 and -6.2in at 200. To you andme that would be -7.7in low at 200.
That means that the current Core Lokt'salreadyoffer nearly identicaltrajectory to the new SST's.
VELOCITY AND ENERGY COMPARISON....
Although these two competitors have nearly identical trajectories one must keep in mind they are shoot very different projectiles. The SST's are 300 gr, While the
Core Lokt's are launching 385 gr.
That means only one thing is possible. The SST's are slower, and do not carry the energy, that the Core Lokt's do.
The actual #'sfor theSST's at 200ydsare velocity 1341 fps, and energy 1198 ft-lbs.
The Core Lokt's at 200 are velocity 1426 fps, and energy 1741ft-lbs.
Although both still have plenty of knock down power at 200yds for deer sized game, the Core Lokt's with an additional 500ft-lbs of power at 200yds would be welcome comfortif one were tomakea poorly placed shot.
COST
They will be between 11-15$....in line with most current high performance Sabots.
CONCLUSION....
Is the SST an new ballistic breakthrough in Sabot technology? NO.... Does any of this tell us anything about the accuracy of the SST's or the Core Lokt's out of any particular gun?..Absolutely not.
TRAJECTORY...
They do not shoot any flatter than the current topperformingSabots on the market. The advertising for the trajectory ismisleading. They quote the trajectory from (-.09in) at the barrel, (if you figure out how to accomplish that let me know). Even with the extra inch they are dead on at 150 and -6.7in at 200 To you and me in the real world that means -7.6inlow at 200.
TRAJECTORY COMPARISON...
The flatest consistent competitor to the Hornady SST would be the Remmington Core Lokt Ultra's.They are once again misleading in their advertisement of trajectory. They qoute their trajectory from -1.5in at thebarrel. These sabots areare dead on at 150 and -6.2in at 200. To you andme that would be -7.7in low at 200.
That means that the current Core Lokt'salreadyoffer nearly identicaltrajectory to the new SST's.
VELOCITY AND ENERGY COMPARISON....
Although these two competitors have nearly identical trajectories one must keep in mind they are shoot very different projectiles. The SST's are 300 gr, While the
Core Lokt's are launching 385 gr.
That means only one thing is possible. The SST's are slower, and do not carry the energy, that the Core Lokt's do.
The actual #'sfor theSST's at 200ydsare velocity 1341 fps, and energy 1198 ft-lbs.
The Core Lokt's at 200 are velocity 1426 fps, and energy 1741ft-lbs.
Although both still have plenty of knock down power at 200yds for deer sized game, the Core Lokt's with an additional 500ft-lbs of power at 200yds would be welcome comfortif one were tomakea poorly placed shot.
COST
They will be between 11-15$....in line with most current high performance Sabots.
CONCLUSION....
Is the SST an new ballistic breakthrough in Sabot technology? NO.... Does any of this tell us anything about the accuracy of the SST's or the Core Lokt's out of any particular gun?..Absolutely not.
08-04-2005, 09:01 AM
#33
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: strange slug issue
I didn't say anything about SST's, as a matter of fact the ones I have seen used were not SST's. They were regular hornady 300 grn XTP's like we shoot out of our ML's but in a shotgun shell. My impression was that the SST's are just XTPs with a polymer tip on them. I don't think the ones we tried had the tips. It was a few years ago though. Maybe they switched to SST's or something? I haven't looked at them in a year or so. All I know is they beat the lightfields and other saboted slugs into the ground as far as trajectory and accuracy. It used to be the ML's had an advanage over slug guns in that department. Now with the ammo choices it is leveling out some. They don't carry as much energy as a 1 oz. slug though obviously, they are considerably lighter. Trade offs, trade offs. They were very accurate out of my friends remington auto.
The hornady's have such a great marketing machine and following because for a long time they were the only load of that type on the market. All the other sabots were 1 ounce or more of lead with a horrible BC. Not a jacketed controlled expansion bullet. Although they were designed for pistols and slower velocities. They basically just took your typical ML load and used it for a slug gun instead.
I guess it wouldn't have to be hornady, I merely meant by shooting a lighter better made bullet you might improve your performance some. I wasn't aware that other companies were making the lighter saboted bullets now. I don't use a slug gun very often so I don't keep up on the ammo choices.
"They quote the trajectory from (-.09in) at the barrel, (if you figure out how to accomplish that let me know)."
Sight height is how you accomplish that. The Hornady's were using a sight height of just under an inch and the remingtons were using a sight height of 1.5 inches which is pretty common. Actually some shotguns use higher mounts so you can also use the open sights. Sight height effect the percieved trajectory. I would expect someone reviewing ammo to know something as basic as that.
Paul
The hornady's have such a great marketing machine and following because for a long time they were the only load of that type on the market. All the other sabots were 1 ounce or more of lead with a horrible BC. Not a jacketed controlled expansion bullet. Although they were designed for pistols and slower velocities. They basically just took your typical ML load and used it for a slug gun instead.
I guess it wouldn't have to be hornady, I merely meant by shooting a lighter better made bullet you might improve your performance some. I wasn't aware that other companies were making the lighter saboted bullets now. I don't use a slug gun very often so I don't keep up on the ammo choices.
"They quote the trajectory from (-.09in) at the barrel, (if you figure out how to accomplish that let me know)."
Sight height is how you accomplish that. The Hornady's were using a sight height of just under an inch and the remingtons were using a sight height of 1.5 inches which is pretty common. Actually some shotguns use higher mounts so you can also use the open sights. Sight height effect the percieved trajectory. I would expect someone reviewing ammo to know something as basic as that.
Paul
08-04-2005, 11:28 AM
#34
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
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RE: strange slug issue
I didn't say anything about SST's
I had also thought the H2K's were 250gr xtp's in fact they are 300gr.
You were in fact refering to the H2K 300gr XTP's.Just for referencethe advertised balistics of the SST's are better, and the Core Lokts even better then the SST's.
It used to be the ML's had an advanage over slug guns in that department. Now with the ammo choices it is leveling out some.
They were very accurate out of my friends remington auto.
The hornady's have such a great marketing machine and following because for a long time they were the only load of that type on the market.
I wasn't aware that other companies were making the lighter saboted bullets now
I don't use a slug gun very often so I don't keep up on the ammo choices.
"They quote the trajectory from (-.09in) at the barrel, (if you figure out how to accomplish that let me know)."
I understand how.... I was poking fun at the manufacturers use of random sighting heights. I think that it is very misleading to the average shooter to A) use a negative starting trajectory at all....ORB.) to have different manufacturers using differnt starting trajectories.
Manufacturers should either post actual trajectory from the barrel. OR decide to use one agreed upon scope height.
This post is not meant to be argumentative, although I now I often come across that way. Hopefully it is informative, I know I learned a bit while posting it. That is all I can ask.
08-04-2005, 12:11 PM
#36
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: strange slug issue
I sort of sounded like a prick too, that was not my intention. I agree they should list the drop in inches with the muzzle being zero to compare stuff accurately. However they are listing what the round will do in it's optimum set up and using the specs that will make thier product look the best. Weclome to advertising. I thought you just didn't understand how they reached those measurements. I'm sure it was right off from a ballistics calculator. I didn't catch the sarcasm, sorry.
I think you if you worked on your load some more you could get better groups that 100 yards. If you haven't already. Unless your rifle just doesn't like those bullets. I get great groups with them at 100 yards. Normally around an inch or so off from a bench. Usually all three bullet holes are touching. But at 150 out of my remington they open up a LOT. My buddies Knight shoots them pretty good at that distance though. I switched to the Precision Rifle bullets in a 350 grn version and they shoot much better at longer distances out of my rifle.
I have never heard of the other rounds for shotguns until recently. The only thing I heard or saw was the Hornadys about 5 years ago. Before that I didn't even deer hunt so I didn't pay any attention to them.
I agree though, depending on the rifle they may not shoot to well. If it was made to shoot a slower bullet it might not work too great. Sort of like shooting a light sabot with a fast powder out of an old side lock ML.
Paul
I think you if you worked on your load some more you could get better groups that 100 yards. If you haven't already. Unless your rifle just doesn't like those bullets. I get great groups with them at 100 yards. Normally around an inch or so off from a bench. Usually all three bullet holes are touching. But at 150 out of my remington they open up a LOT. My buddies Knight shoots them pretty good at that distance though. I switched to the Precision Rifle bullets in a 350 grn version and they shoot much better at longer distances out of my rifle.
I have never heard of the other rounds for shotguns until recently. The only thing I heard or saw was the Hornadys about 5 years ago. Before that I didn't even deer hunt so I didn't pay any attention to them.
I agree though, depending on the rifle they may not shoot to well. If it was made to shoot a slower bullet it might not work too great. Sort of like shooting a light sabot with a fast powder out of an old side lock ML.
Paul
08-04-2005, 12:41 PM
#37
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 1,233
RE: strange slug issue
I agree completelywith you that thegrouping will come in alot. My point was that it only took me ...8 shots ever with that gun.... to get to that group. That is from showing up at the range having not yetsighted the scope and never having evenshot a muzzleloader.
(Also keep in mind I was using a lee dipper to measure the powder.... not too conducive to tight groups.)
(Also keep in mind I was using a lee dipper to measure the powder.... not too conducive to tight groups.)
09-20-2005, 05:59 PM
#38
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: romulus ny USA
Posts: 108
RE: strange slug issue
I think I found the problem with the gun. I thought some of you that replied might be interested in what caused this.
I finally got some time to try to figure out what was wrong. I used a lazer bore sight on the gun and checked the second scope I put on the gun. It was dead on. This scope was a 2.5 power. I took that one off and put the adjustable 1.5-4.5 power scope that I had on when the gun was shooting high. I again used the lazer and with the scope set at 1.5 power I adjusted it until it was dead on. I then turned the power of the scope up and as I did the red dot rose up above the crosshairs. I was aiming at an object only ten yards away and at 4.5 power the red dot was about two inches high. I think the combination of sighting in two inches high at 50 yards and then being at full power with a busted scope caused my point of impact to rise over a foot.
I immediately pulled the scope off and put the 2.5 power back on and bore sighted that one. Unfortunately I didn't have time to take the gun out today to try it but I think my priblem was caused by a cheap scope that busted.
I finally got some time to try to figure out what was wrong. I used a lazer bore sight on the gun and checked the second scope I put on the gun. It was dead on. This scope was a 2.5 power. I took that one off and put the adjustable 1.5-4.5 power scope that I had on when the gun was shooting high. I again used the lazer and with the scope set at 1.5 power I adjusted it until it was dead on. I then turned the power of the scope up and as I did the red dot rose up above the crosshairs. I was aiming at an object only ten yards away and at 4.5 power the red dot was about two inches high. I think the combination of sighting in two inches high at 50 yards and then being at full power with a busted scope caused my point of impact to rise over a foot.
I immediately pulled the scope off and put the 2.5 power back on and bore sighted that one. Unfortunately I didn't have time to take the gun out today to try it but I think my priblem was caused by a cheap scope that busted.
09-20-2005, 06:32 PM
#39
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 1,233
RE: strange slug issue
ORIGINAL: jcchartboy
I don't want to say it is ballistically impossible, but it think it is.
If the other shells are truely shooting correctly. It is ballistically impossible that the lightfields are shooting 12" high. It is simply not possible forthat bullet to rise over a foot at 100yds.
I don't want to say it is ballistically impossible, but it think it is.
If the other shells are truely shooting correctly. It is ballistically impossible that the lightfields are shooting 12" high. It is simply not possible forthat bullet to rise over a foot at 100yds.
Thanks for the final reply, I knew something didn't sound right from the begining. I am glad you got it figured out. Now, lets see how it shoots. I'll be looking forward toa range report!
JC
09-21-2005, 09:27 AM
#40
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: strange slug issue
The only problem I can see is that when reading your previous posts you stated that you tried both scopes and they did the same thing. I agree a defective scope can change your impact when you change the power setting. This is why many swear by fixed power scopes. However I have not seen that problem in years. The newer scopes just don't seem to do it.
Is this not the same scope you tried already and said it shot a foot high as well? Bore sighting it with a lazer probably will not change anything unless you are adjusting your mounts.
Something you could try is re zeroing your scope (setting it back the the factory settings) or trying a scope that has not been messed with yet. This means you can put it in a V-block and turn it and the cross hairs will not move in a circle. Take that scope and mount it to the gun. Then use the lazer bore sight and see if it is off. If it is way off it might be that your rings need lapped or the mounts need shimmed. Honestly I would take it to a gun shop and tell them what is happening and ask them to mount your scope for you. It costs like 30 bucks in my area.
Good luck getting it figured out.
Paul
Is this not the same scope you tried already and said it shot a foot high as well? Bore sighting it with a lazer probably will not change anything unless you are adjusting your mounts.
Something you could try is re zeroing your scope (setting it back the the factory settings) or trying a scope that has not been messed with yet. This means you can put it in a V-block and turn it and the cross hairs will not move in a circle. Take that scope and mount it to the gun. Then use the lazer bore sight and see if it is off. If it is way off it might be that your rings need lapped or the mounts need shimmed. Honestly I would take it to a gun shop and tell them what is happening and ask them to mount your scope for you. It costs like 30 bucks in my area.
Good luck getting it figured out.
Paul