Recoil Managing Shooting Rests
02-08-2007, 08:35 PM
#21
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 518
RE: Recoil Managing Shooting Rests
"By the time you feel any recoil at all, the bullet has already left the building." Not only that, it's already punched a hole in the target!
Jeepkid, I must have mixed you up with someone else that I envied, ha ha. Anyway, nice modified M77.
Jeepkid, I must have mixed you up with someone else that I envied, ha ha. Anyway, nice modified M77.
02-08-2007, 08:52 PM
#22
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Rivesville, WV
Posts: 3,192
RE: Recoil Managing Shooting Rests
I fully understand Sine waves and barrel harmonics. But you stilldida good job explaining that. I am just of the opinion that the bullet has not left the barrel, before the barrel starts to raise(because of the rifle recoiling). I used the pistol reference, because when the barrel was strapped down, it could not raise due to firing the round. IMO it is the same as the rifle jumping off the hood of the truck in my earlier reference. You said you agreed with me about the POI being different when you shoot with bipods off the hood of a truck. The flimisiness of the hood could only effect POI if the bullet was still in the barrel when the hood affected the rifle? How could the hood affect the POI unless the bullet was still in the barrel? I agree that there may be a velocity when the bullet is out of the barrel before the barrel starts to rise from recoil. And I do believe you when you say the lead sled does not affect your POI. Were you shooting a heavy rifle? Or a rifle that was ported? Both of these factors would affect how high the barrel would rise before the bullet left the bore. I realize that we are splitting hairs, but it sure is fun. I have been thinking about this all day. Tom.
02-12-2007, 04:49 PM
#23
Fork Horn
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 138
RE: Recoil Managing Shooting Rests
I have a lead sled and I like it. Works as advertised. I sighted in my .257 roberts, .270 win and my friends 6mm and 35 whelen in an afternoon and it allows me to keep my eyes open when shooting. Hardly any felt recoil. I have not noticed any change in POI nor did my friend.
As far as recoil, it is my understanding that most recoil force is generated from the gasses escaping after the bullet leaves the barrel (I guess this is why muzzle breaks work at reducing felt recoil). So I would believe most barrel lift would occur after the bullet has left the barrel. I also asked my wife (she's pretty smart,in spite of being anAggie
) about why the lead sled reduces recoil and she gave me the Ol' F=ma or a=f/m, so if acceleration is constant (from the bullet) then force is reduced as you increase mass (the lead on the lead sled). So the lead would be absorbing more force than the gun. Anyway, that's my two cents worth.
As far as recoil, it is my understanding that most recoil force is generated from the gasses escaping after the bullet leaves the barrel (I guess this is why muzzle breaks work at reducing felt recoil). So I would believe most barrel lift would occur after the bullet has left the barrel. I also asked my wife (she's pretty smart,in spite of being anAggie
) about why the lead sled reduces recoil and she gave me the Ol' F=ma or a=f/m, so if acceleration is constant (from the bullet) then force is reduced as you increase mass (the lead on the lead sled). So the lead would be absorbing more force than the gun. Anyway, that's my two cents worth.
02-12-2007, 07:01 PM
#24
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 518
RE: Recoil Managing Shooting Rests
"I fully understand Sine waves and barrel harmonics. But you stilldida good job explaining that. I am just of the opinion that the bullet has not left the barrel, before the barrel starts to raise(because of the rifle recoiling)."
If that were the case then your accuracy would be in some serious trouble. Either that, or the round would be moving so slow that it would peder out and just drop from the end of your muzzel my friend.
If that were the case then your accuracy would be in some serious trouble. Either that, or the round would be moving so slow that it would peder out and just drop from the end of your muzzel my friend.
02-13-2007, 10:33 AM
#26
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Rivesville, WV
Posts: 3,192
RE: Recoil Managing Shooting Rests
Thank you CMA. I was wondering when I was going to get some help. 77 I really do believe the bullet is still in the barrel when the firearm begins to recoil-be it ever so slight. IMO it is more noticable in pistols and pistol velocities, as I stated earlier. I realize we are splitting hairs here, but it has been fun. Tom.
02-13-2007, 01:36 PM
#27
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Where the ducks don't come no more
Posts: 4,420
RE: Recoil Managing Shooting Rests
ORIGINAL: cma3366a
Gun hold has alot to do with the POI of your shots, Holding your gun consistantly, regardless of what you do is key. How absolutly consistant do you think the feet of a lead sled skidding over a bench in recoil is, how consistant is the return to battery? How comprable is the leadsled to how you hold/shoot a gun?
Gun hold has alot to do with the POI of your shots, Holding your gun consistantly, regardless of what you do is key. How absolutly consistant do you think the feet of a lead sled skidding over a bench in recoil is, how consistant is the return to battery? How comprable is the leadsled to how you hold/shoot a gun?
ORIGINAL: SwampCollie
From post #18, bottom paragraph
The only way, at least in my eyes, that a sled would change your POI, is because you are out of a natural shooting position. You can't snuggle up to that sled like you can a rifle unobstructed by such a device. This may well force a shooter into a different head position than hisnormal or natural one. Paralax would come into play I suppose, but it may well alter the POI. Moreover, try canting a rifle at 25 degrees next time and see what it does to your POI. That may well be a cause also, as sometimes a shot in the field will make you lean a little bit. But that is no different than a regular bag, or tri-pod rifle rest. If you tilt your rifle, your POI is going to change....period.
From post #18, bottom paragraph
The only way, at least in my eyes, that a sled would change your POI, is because you are out of a natural shooting position. You can't snuggle up to that sled like you can a rifle unobstructed by such a device. This may well force a shooter into a different head position than hisnormal or natural one. Paralax would come into play I suppose, but it may well alter the POI. Moreover, try canting a rifle at 25 degrees next time and see what it does to your POI. That may well be a cause also, as sometimes a shot in the field will make you lean a little bit. But that is no different than a regular bag, or tri-pod rifle rest. If you tilt your rifle, your POI is going to change....period.
I will submit this once more as well: Are we not attempting only to test our equipment here? Does anyone here acctually shoot deer off a lead-sled or sandbags? There maybe a few who have box stands with sandbags, but for the most part (espeically in my neck of the country) treestands and (sadly) truck window's seem to be the prefered method. Now, will your POI change from shot to shot on the lead-sled...no, it shouldn't, and in my case has not. Will your POI be differentout of the lead-sled and resting on sandbags; it might, but in my experience it has not. Will your POI be different under real field conditions than it is on the lead-sled; may very well be, but I have not been able to prove or disprove it. Any variences were so slight that they would surely be attributed to user error.
Here again...maybe we should be sighting our rifles in off-hand, or using safari sticks?
02-13-2007, 02:31 PM
#28
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 518
RE: Recoil Managing Shooting Rests
ORIGINAL: SwampCollie
A read of the whole thread may be in order here. I'll make it easy on you:
Tom: You are right, it is splitting hairs, and it is fun to look at all sides of the discussion.
I will submit this once more as well: Are we not attempting only to test our equipment here? Does anyone here acctually shoot deer off a lead-sled or sandbags? There maybe a few who have box stands with sandbags, but for the most part (espeically in my neck of the country) treestands and (sadly) truck window's seem to be the prefered method. Now, will your POI change from shot to shot on the lead-sled...no, it shouldn't, and in my case has not. Will your POI be differentout of the lead-sled and resting on sandbags; it might, but in my experience it has not. Will your POI be different under real field conditions than it is on the lead-sled; may very well be, but I have not been able to prove or disprove it. Any variences were so slight that they would surely be attributed to user error.
Here again...maybe we should be sighting our rifles in off-hand, or using safari sticks?
ORIGINAL: cma3366a
Gun hold has alot to do with the POI of your shots, Holding your gun consistantly, regardless of what you do is key. How absolutly consistant do you think the feet of a lead sled skidding over a bench in recoil is, how consistant is the return to battery? How comprable is the leadsled to how you hold/shoot a gun?
Gun hold has alot to do with the POI of your shots, Holding your gun consistantly, regardless of what you do is key. How absolutly consistant do you think the feet of a lead sled skidding over a bench in recoil is, how consistant is the return to battery? How comprable is the leadsled to how you hold/shoot a gun?
A read of the whole thread may be in order here. I'll make it easy on you:
ORIGINAL: SwampCollie
From post #18, bottom paragraph
The only way, at least in my eyes, that a sled would change your POI, is because you are out of a natural shooting position. You can't snuggle up to that sled like you can a rifle unobstructed by such a device. This may well force a shooter into a different head position than hisnormal or natural one. Paralax would come into play I suppose, but it may well alter the POI. Moreover, try canting a rifle at 25 degrees next time and see what it does to your POI. That may well be a cause also, as sometimes a shot in the field will make you lean a little bit. But that is no different than a regular bag, or tri-pod rifle rest. If you tilt your rifle, your POI is going to change....period.
From post #18, bottom paragraph
The only way, at least in my eyes, that a sled would change your POI, is because you are out of a natural shooting position. You can't snuggle up to that sled like you can a rifle unobstructed by such a device. This may well force a shooter into a different head position than hisnormal or natural one. Paralax would come into play I suppose, but it may well alter the POI. Moreover, try canting a rifle at 25 degrees next time and see what it does to your POI. That may well be a cause also, as sometimes a shot in the field will make you lean a little bit. But that is no different than a regular bag, or tri-pod rifle rest. If you tilt your rifle, your POI is going to change....period.
I will submit this once more as well: Are we not attempting only to test our equipment here? Does anyone here acctually shoot deer off a lead-sled or sandbags? There maybe a few who have box stands with sandbags, but for the most part (espeically in my neck of the country) treestands and (sadly) truck window's seem to be the prefered method. Now, will your POI change from shot to shot on the lead-sled...no, it shouldn't, and in my case has not. Will your POI be differentout of the lead-sled and resting on sandbags; it might, but in my experience it has not. Will your POI be different under real field conditions than it is on the lead-sled; may very well be, but I have not been able to prove or disprove it. Any variences were so slight that they would surely be attributed to user error.
Here again...maybe we should be sighting our rifles in off-hand, or using safari sticks?
02-13-2007, 06:49 PM
#30
Fork Horn
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 138
RE: Recoil Managing Shooting Rests
When you say secured with velcro do you mean the front rest or do you mean that the rifle is being held by a velcro strap? I don't know about the newer models but the one I have does not secure the rifle with velcro,the riflejust rests on a front bag (whichis secured to the sled by two velcro straps, the rest that is) and then the butt rests in an L shaped bracket. I'm able to hold the rifle pretty close to how I would shoot off a sand bags, the big diffrence is that my LOP has been altered. I don't know, it works for me.