jeepkid

I've even heard on stocks cracking from using a Lead-Sled, but, to each to his own. I won't use one.

M77man

Like soft walls in Nascar? Umm, the led sled practically moves with the movement of your rifle. I doubt that you've witnessed this. What caliber and cartrige?

Anyway, nice pic's of your hunts. You're a better hunter then I am so far.

HEAD0001

I can believe that a stock could crack. I have never used a lead sled, and have never been around one. I am not speaking from any experience. But I still can believe it. If the rifle is not allowed to recoil, then the energy has to be absorbed somewhere. The only logical place would be the stock???

I also still believe that the rifle will have a different POI. All shooting entails FOLLOW THROUGH, whether it be bow, shotgun, rifle, pistol, or ML. By not allowing the rifle to recoil, the follow through has to be different. That is why lighter loads in a pistol will shoot higher. There may be less in a high power rifle because of a higher velocity, but it still has to be there. It just has to. Tom.

SwampCollie

By the time you feel any recoil at all, the bullet has already left the building. Follow through helps you think or focus through the shot, not just up to it. Keeps you from flinching and such. Just like shooting a bow or swinging through a duck lifting out of the blocks. As long as you do everything right up to the shot, it doesn't really matter if you follow through or not. Of course it is good form, and its much easier to do it right in a straight line than stopping quickly.

As far as the sled damaging stocks....doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.I have shot everything from .330 Dakotas, to 375s, to .458s, as well as a host of muzzleloaders and shotguns off of mine, with no problems at all. I have experienced no issues with scopes moving in the rings, actions screws shearing or stocks breaking. The only issues I have ever had were when a baggage handler dropped my case off the air traffic control tower (or some other high spot), which moved the scope in the rings a good 1/4", and sheared an ACTION screw of all things. The case, which was new, showed obvious signs of a steep, on-endfall. That momentum, followed by a solid stop, caused the issues. If there is no momentum in the first place, I can't see how any of these breakages could be occuring. Other than user error, or an already weakend stock that wouldhave broken anyway.

jeepkid

Ummm..... Haven't posted any pics of hunts..... Anyway, I'll try and find the reviews I read about the Lead-Sled.

HEAD0001

SwampCollie I have got to totally disagree with you on this one. Velocity is definitely a factor in the amount of time the bullet spends in the barrel. I think we both agree on that. And the faster the ML, the less barrel time, I think we both agree on that. But to say that there is no reaction of the firearm while the bullet is still in the barrel, that is where I disagree with you.

I will admit-there may be a velocity where your scenario takes over, or there may be a rifle weight-that I do not know for sure. But I can assure you that at pistol velocities, ML velocities, 45-70 velocities, and up to ??????-Follow through will affect POI. Just ask a bench rest shooter why he does not hold his barrel on the bags. Yes they use a heavier barrel to lessen muzzle flip-but you will never see a BR shooter hold his barrel down.

I can show you a simple way this is true. If you have a set of Harris bi-pods, put them on your deer rifle. Sight your rifle dead on at 200 yards off of sandbags first. Next shoot your rifle at 200 yards with the harris bipods off of a solid bench. Third shoot off of the center of the hood on a truck. The truck hood is flexible, and the recoil off the flexible hood will change your POI. Tom.

skeeter 7MM

I used the lead sled and it works as advertised. Like any rest itmay require a little of realignment between shots. Ihave never witnessed a POI shift that can be attributed to bench aids. I load develop & site inoff a bench and sand bags personally with no problems, though still practice in field positions for obvious reasons.

jeepkid I have read similar statements about the recoil having to go somewhere when the sled is used but I an not sure if that is truth or theory???? I've used the sled on a number of occasions and haven't noticed any ill effects to the guns for which it was used. Included was a 416 Rigby fired only from the sled and more times then thought to be humanly possible.

BTW, I don't own onemyself, asI don'thave the need to tame such beasts, just posting myexperiences using one.

SwampCollie

I don't think we are quite connecting here head. I never said that there was no reaction of the firearm while the bullet is still in the barrel. Heck, just watch a high speed, the barrel flexes like a 10' piece of skinny PVC. What I am saying is that human beings are not fast enough to rationalize any recoil until the bullet has already left the barrel. The brain is pretty fast, but reactions aren't. By the time you have FELT the gun recoil, the bullet is long gone.

No you won't ever see a BR shooter hold his barrel. And the reason is that a pressure on the barrel will change the way it flexes during the firing of the rifle. If you put your hand on the barrel, it will not undulate in the same way as it would unmolested. Much the same as a hot barrel will not undulate like a cold one. Hence, we let her cool off. And for the same reason, we free float barrels and bed actions; just to keep things the same.

You are talking about apples and kangeroos here Tom. I see the point you are making about the POI changing, as the hood will flex just enough in response to the barrel undulations to move your POI enough to be at least noticable given a decent sample. But if that argument was truly applicable here, it would be a rational statement to say that all of our zeroing should be done offhand, or in a field shooting situation rather than off a benchrest, or any solid rest for that matter. We are not testing our shooting ability here, we are just testing our equipment. True, an object such as a flexiable truck hood can effect your POI, but that is an instantaenous response. Humans don't work like sheet metal or high impact plastic (if you drive a Saturn). If you have flinched at the shot, the damage is done. Your follow through just allows you to keep from flinching in the first place. I think we are sort of on the same page with this, just looking at it from two different places.

As far as changing the POI, if you have a free floated barrel, it won't matter, but otherwise, putting pressure on the forearm in different places will effect your POI greatly. The Sled, by its very design, will not allow you to put the rifle anywhere but in the same place every single time.

The only way, at least in my eyes, that a sled would change your POI, is because you are out of a natural shooting position. You can't snuggle up to that sled like you can a rifle unobstructed by such a device. This may well force a shooter into a different head position than hisnormal or natural one. Paralax would come into play I suppose, but it may well alter the POI. Moreover, try canting a rifle at 25 degrees next time and see what it does to your POI. That may well be a cause also, as sometimes a shot in the field will make you lean a little bit. But that is no different than a regular bag, or tri-pod rifle rest. If you tilt your rifle, your POI is going to change....period.

HEAD0001

Years ago I had a shooting problem that I could not figure out. I had a Ruger Blackhawk in 357 MAXIMUM. I believe it wore a 10 1/2 inch barrel. Because of the flame cutting I had a very light practice load, and a heavy hunting load. I could never figure out why the light load shot higher than the heavy load. I went to the SHOT Show that year in New Orleans(that's another story). I talked to the ballisticians for Sierra and Hornady. They told me that the slower bullet spent more time in the barrel, and when the pistol was recoiling the muzzle flip was higher when the bullet left the barrel. Thus hitting higher. I found this hard to believe, but they both said the same thing. When we got back from the show we shot the pistol off of a pistol rest, but we strapped the barrel down. Sure enough the lighter load shot low, because the barrel was not allowed to flip. When we unstrapped the barrel, it shot high again.

Earlier when I spoke of recoil and follow through. I was speaking of the firearms recoil and folow through(muzzle flip), not the shooter's. I could easily be wrong, and there could be some velocity where the bullet exits before the muzzle begins to climb. I do not know what the velocity is.

I am only saying that if you change the natural recoil(which is what the lead sled does), and the muzzle flip of a firearm, I am pretty sure there will be a change in POI. At the higher velocities, this change in POI might not be noticable, but I am pretty sure that at the lower velocities(as in a pistol cartridge) POI will change. Tom.

SwampCollie

Tom:

Ok, now we are making headway here. Ironically, I went and shot off my Lead Sled this afternoon. Had been meaning to do some shooting anyway, but thought I'd test a few things while afield. More on that shortly.

With regards to what you are calling, muzzle flip; this is the same as the undulations (or vibrations) that I was speaking of earlier. Its the same reason that bullets of similar weight will not always shoot to the same POI, given that they are loaded by two different makers (Fed v. Rem). Think of these undulations, or muzzle flip, as a sound wave. Your barrel is quite litterally moving up and down as the bullet travels down the barrel. The key is getting the bullet to leave at exactly the same point along that wavelength each time. That is effected by pressure on the barrel (free floating or not), temperature of the barrel, and any other forces present on the barrel, such as your hand resting atop it. The way the gun acctually recoils, or kicks, has nothing to do with those undulations, because by the time the recoil (read: kick) acctually comes into play, the bullet has left the barrel. I tried it again today on the sled. No difference what so ever. None. I used both a 7mm-08 and a 300 WSM. And had no noticeable difference at all. Even when I broke out the caliper, the results were inconclusive and could easily be attributed to user error. Albeit a small amount. The POI's (I shot a couple of three shot groups for each) were not consistantly higher or lower on either one. My standard deviation was about .2" in either direction. There again, user error. If I could get that sort of result off anything other than a bench rest, I'd be shooting for a living.

With regards to your pistol, I don't see exactly what a pistol has to do with a lead sled. Nor strapping it down. This is not how the sled works, so I am a bit in the dark on that example.