Bigg~BirddVA

Looks like a Guardian limb style modified to an xbow. Specs on it by chance? Should be quieter. You say the chain is gone? Weight down too? More damn it, we need more! LOL

SwampCollie

You asked for honest feedback...so here it comes...from a state that has allowed crossbows for going on three seasons during its early archery season:


First, the crossbow is closer to a firearm than a vertical bow. At least in appearance...and relative ease of use. That does not make it a firearm, however. Secondly, saying that a vertical bow of any sort, be it a self longbow or a Drenalin is "easy to use" as crossbow is flat out haneous. While compound bow technology has sure made it easier than making your own bow and using a sinew string with flint knapped heads, it is in no way shape or form more difficult to shoot a crossbow than a vertical bow.

The last statement of thatparagraph completely made me stop reading the article. It shows an overwhelming subjectivity in composition. I don't take QDMA or dog training tips from Ingrid Newkirk, just like I don't take nutrition advice from Rosie O'Donnell...nor will anyone who is on the fence about the subject, or ignorant about it, give the arguements presented any factual credit. To me, it just sounds like someone on a soapbox with an axe to grind.

Think back to why primitive weapons seasons came about in the first place. This exact thing has happened with muzzleloaders. I remember PA having a flintlock only requirement. And my home state of VA requiring sidelock percussion and being considered "liberal," by allowing (gasp) conical bullets.

Now, a muzzleloader is little more than a rifle without a brass case cartridge and a magazine. Only it smokes more, smells bad, and is a bitch to clean. But, it does generate revenue...and thats what makes the world go round..the all mighty dollar. Infact, in VA, if you want to hunt the peak of the rut, you have to be using a bow or a smoke pole.

The rest of the artcile, from these sad paragraphs forth, saved it. Good points made in the closing. I stand with the camp that personally, doesn't really care.

This brings me to my stance on the whole thing: Hunting is an individual or paired activity (espeically as it pertains to bow hunting). You get out of it what you put in to it. Its a self-satisfying action. How it is done, the effort put forth etc is all reflected ONLY in the mind of THAT ONE HUNTER. Hunting is about hunting for its own sake. Its not about dead animals. If I wanted a dead deer, I'd use a rifle, a spot light, and a ton of corn. But what would I get out of that? Little more than a fine, and dead deer. When I take a deer with my bow, or a duck over my own decoys that I called in and then watch the dog I trained retrieve it....that is my trophy. That is something that I hang over the fireplace in the warm lodge of my fondest memories...and it is intangible to everyone but me.

Bottom line, I don't care how anyone else hunts. Forgive the analogy, but its the only appropriate one that stands out in my mind; Crossbows and crossbow hunting are just like homosexuality...its not contagious, and what youput in/take away from yourpersonal hunting experience is completely up to you and no one else's business.

DJH -------

Swamp Collie - Have hunting with vertical bows for 35 years and whether they are easy to use or not would seem to be a matter of opinion, which is relative. A friend of mine just took his 12 year old daughter to a Proshop and they picked out a Parker bow with all the bells and whistles that fit her perfectly. They led her to the twenty-yard range where she proceeded to shoot bullseyes from the very first arrow and finished with her first Robin Hood. It was the first time she had ever had a compound bow in her hands. Is she a natural? Probably, if she is anything like her daddy, but the point is that the modern compound is easy to master (at least for this particular 12 year old girl).

As far as my "overwhelming subjectivity in composition" perhaps you are right, but if one were to visit the Outdoor Life blogs that are taking place right now, they would be inclined to agree with my statement. It makes for a very interesting read and the anti-crossbow camp gets an "F" in a lot more areas than just logic. However Sir, your response is a refreshing breeze of fragrant fall air and I am sorry that your were offended by my comment.

Your paragraph on your stance was commendable and right on the money. And as for comparing crossbow hunting to homosexuality, well whatever floats your boat. Your final phrase was once again right on the money and soundly drove home your point, a point that no logical hunter should disagree with be he straight or gay. Enjoyed your comments. Thank you for taking the time to share them.

SwampCollie

Yes, please don't take that as an insult, or an attack or anything of the sort because they were certainly not intended to be used as anything other than a comparision. It was more of an attack, if you could even call it that, on folks who do not understand or tolerate hunters who choose to hunt with x-bows. The only reason that I wrote that, and I almost edited it back out later, was because it was the only decent comparision I can think of.

The paragraph you wrote about vert bow hunter's being afraid of x-bowmen killing "MY deer" in "MY season", is right dead on the money. Vert bow shooters are quite litterally afraid that x-bow hunters will take over the world and infect everyone with some sort of disease.... just like lots of folks think that being gay, or black, or whatever is a disease or a plauge, which of course it is not.

The whole reason that people bow hunt in general, is because they like to bow hunt. They enjoy the challenge of getting close, and being completely undetected by the animal. That does not change, whether you hunt with a longbow,recurve, atlatyl (there is a guy in VA hunting with one), compound or x-bow. Its"invisible to allbut hunter and game..." to steal a quote from "Under Wild Skies."

DJH -------

SwampCollie – The real deep, dark secret behind the long bow seasons that we all worked so hard to acquire for ALL bowhunters is greed. Stop and think really hard about it.

"Whine, Whine - If I can get into the woods a full two or two and a half months before the gun season, than I can get a chance at the big bucks before the lazy, slob gun hunters come and shoot them up. But we can’t encourage anybody else to pick up a bow and arrow of any kind. Because then there will be too much competition for the big bucks because there are too many people in the woods. And I have to kill big buck to prove to myself and everyone that will listen to me telling and retelling how I am a macho hunter of caveman proportions capable of surviving with just a string and a stick. First it was the compound that threaten me and my way of life. Now it is the crossbow. We can’t let that happen because the compound has already brought too many hunters into the woods and most of them are lazy slob hunters, but we have finally accepted them and programmed their thinking to make them believe that we consider them as part of our prehistoric gang. Now we have some of them hating the crossbow so we falsely claim that all bowhunters are against the crossbow even though we know that most of these compound hunters are still lazy slobs that would also like to use the crossbow. But we must fight the change because it will bring too many hunters into the woods to chase our bucks and that will be awful for me. It might be awful for other bowhunters too, but I don’t care. It’s MY bucks I am fearful of losing. Screw those other bowhunters after all its every Neanderthal for itself – Whine, Whine!"

Perhaps a bit silly and somewhat over done, but the fear of loss is a very real thing to these people. Stop and think about it. Bowhunting is at its peak up until the gun season and then most bowhunters quit for the year because the lazy slob gun hunters have shot up all the bucks. Personally, I hunt for meat until the gun season and then continue to do so until very last day of season. Tender, delicious, succulent venison is and always has been my definition of a trophy – the fattened yearling buck is the best meat animal in the forest. No horn hotdish for me because it tastes awful. Now don’t get me wrong, if a big boy happens along, I need meat for Polish Sausage and Beer Sticks too so my bow will be on full automatic. But do I enter the woods with a monster buck in mind as the objective – no I do not.

Ask my friends and they will testify to the fact that I am much more into the social aspect of hunting. I encourage anyone and everyone that will listen to my blathering to pick up a bow (any kind of bow) and give it a try because it is a wonderful and spiritual pastime that is meant to be shared by ALL. It is a great way for friends to share quality time together, while sharing some very special adventures. Bowhunting, in my humble opinion, is not a solitary sport. It is a team sport meant to be shared with friends, family, women, youngsters and the elderly. The crossbow can help facilitate this objective.

And the more people we have in the woods partaking of this unique experience, the stronger our lobby becomes making it easier to protect our hunting heritage. A time-honored heritage that has been targeted for elimination by the ANIMAL RIGHTS FANATICS (ARF’S) a very large, well financed and well organized faction that will not rest until ALL hunting has been outlawed and abolished forever. Now I ask you or anyone else, what is more important? Keeping the woods to yourself so that you can kill a big buck before anyone else gets a chance at it or protecting from the ARF;s the privilege of you, me and our friends and family sharing quality time together in the wilderness? I realize from your posts that I am preaching to the choir SwampCollie, but this is the message we have to get out, especially to those who believe that any new bowhunter is a threat to THEIR bucks, in THEIR woods during THEIR season.

SwampCollie

One of the issues that goes hand and hand with that DJH is something that was revealed in a recent study in VA, and i'm sure its true throughout the US. Of the hunter's polled by the VDGIF (our state Natural Resources Org), over 80% said that they were "buck" hunters, first, last and always. Now, off the top of my memory, I am not sure exactly what portion of the hunting population uses bows only, guns only, and what percent use both (I use both, depending on where I am hunting). But I am confident that most gun only hunters would be more prone to shooting does, were they using archery tackle. Its kind of like hunting all season and not seeing anything...then that jake walks out...or that hen mallard flies in....and its game time. But, on a morning when the ducks are working well, and in abundunce...we will pick our shots...and shoot only drakes. Its the same sort of idea....

Now, because hunters in large part will not shoot does, we are having states go to the earn a buck programs. Honestly, I think its kind of a bad idea. I am much like you, I don't really care about killing a big buck. If I get a line on one and can hunt him exclusively, or if one happens by, sure I'll take him....but a doe is just as good for me... and I shoot more than my share to pick up the slack for the rest of the hunters on our place who only shoot bucks.

In VA, where they are now talking about the earn a buck program, I think it would be a much better idea to allow youth hunters (under 18 or 16 and under) to shoot does for the entire season, irregardless of weapon. I think its a win-win for hunting and the deer herd. They already made the archery seasons either sex for the duration, and that is helping considerably, but we still have issues with our ratios. I'm sure its part of the reason they allow x-bows now. Although, vet bow hunters are still killing more deer in VA than x-bow hunters....just like in that Arkansas study if I remember it correctly.

DJH -------

I am not surprised at that 80%. That’s another positive point about the crossbow users. Just about 100% of the crossbow hunters I have met and spoken with are meat hunters (There you go, living testimony that crossbow hunters are indeed lazy slob-hunters). They are in it for the hunt, not the trophy. With the ample herds we have in this country, numbers management should be the key objective of each and every hunter. I am stunned to silence (well not quite) at the number of people I speak with that hunt purely for the trophy and don’t eat, or even like for that matter, venison. This is just my opinion, but to me that is sacrilege. If you are not going to partake of the creature that you kill, then you shouldn’t be out there killing it (Now who is the anti-hunter? ME!) But I am sorry! To me, a hunter is person who goes out and pursues wild game to feed himself and his family. To go out and kill just to hang another head on the wall just doesn’t seem morally right to me. How many of the trophy bucks taken do you think end up in the freezer? Consider the tough stringy, all gamed up from being in rut- Ummm, good! Not very many get eaten, I bet. So, if what I say is correct, (bearing in mind that I have no proof of what I state other than personal conversations with other hunters) then a very large percentage of hunters go out to kill a beautiful whitetail buck in its prime just to hang the head on the wall and throw away the carcass. Does anyone else but me see something very wrong with that picture?

Now it is their license and they are entitled to do whatever they want with the animal that they harvest, but isn’t there an underlying moral issue here that we as responsible hunters should uphold. I have a unbreakable rule that applies to all of my hunting. If I won’t eat it, I won’t kill it. Now that presents a problem in the eyes of some folks, because it is the reasoning for my preference to small bucks and in the trophy-taking circles, to shoot a small buck is a NO NO. I guess its better to shoot a big buck and then throw away the meat and keep the head. Now please don’t jump on me because I know in my heart not all hunters do that, but lets be honest, some do. What is the saddest of all is that then that hunter hangs the head of a prime breeder on the wall and says, "When you grow up and get real good, you can be as great a hunter as I am!" Excuse me if I fail to bow down (if you actually see me doing this, I am just throwing up) and worship such a person for his self proclaimed might (or should I write "mite"?).

Dang it SwampCollie – You sure do get me to thinking out loud a lot. Perhaps someday we can share a campfire together and really get the problems of the world worked out. And rest assured that there will always be problems to work out when ever there are human beings involved. It is the nature of the beast. Some folks are born to create problems and then others are born to help find solutions. It would appear Sir, that you fall into the second category and I am please to make your acquaintance.

ranger56528

Good read Guys keep it up.....

PS...
Iam a meat hunter.....DOES ONLY.....try to stay under 4 and over 2 yrs of age.....
havnt killed a deer with a rifle in 24yrs. Bow only.....

SwampCollie

Well thanks DJH. Most of the problems of the world today come from parents not beating their kids....but thats another story. I darn near tanned the hide of a neighbors kid who felt it necessary to walk along the road and kick over everybody's trash can. He just finished cutting my front yard as a matter of fact...at least his parents had the sense to make him pay some pennence...although why to me I am not sure... and he did have to police up the neighborhood too.

At any rate, I'm right there with you DJH. Only I prefer to let the little bucks walk, simply for the fact that the rest of the bunch in my club just LOVE to kill bucks and will get some satisfaction out of it, and the fact that we have so many does and so few bucks... might just as well shoot a flat top. I'm still feedin' on the deer I shot last season. I filled three freezers of my own, and have about half of one left. Used to suppliment venision with other grub, but with gas having gone way up....had to cut rations and stick with venision. No gripes here, except that I'm fixing to run out. All said and done, my slickhead slaughterin last year saw 7 deer get donated to the Buckmasters Venison for the Hungry program, and I shot 11 others that were directly gifted to friends and families who asked for a deer or two. The remainer went into the clutches of yours truely. All told, I ended up with 32 does (21 with the rifle and 11 with a bow)just during the season last year (I told you we had deer problems...)... and that does not include the summertime culling programs....all of that meat is donated directly to the food bank. But, the fact that I shoot does is why I was invited to hunt that land. The members pay $1500 a season...and I didn't have to pay a dime. All I did was some work around the place, and killed does. My former boss is in charge of the place, and if I wouldn't of had to of moved...I'd already be hanging stands...awaiting August 15th again.

I reckon we've got off topic. But the meat and potatoes is I have never carried a crossbow afield to hunt with. I shoot both recurves (but I use a flipper rest, which makes me a cheater, nevermind my aluminum arrows) and modern compounds that look more like miniature cranes than archery tackle. I sell about as many crossbows as I do verticle bows, and I work on both, tinker and play with both and shoot both for sport in the range. I tend to steer folks more towards modern compounds than crossbows if they are young, healthy and able, since they are infact more potenet at range than x-bows (thats a lie...compounds just break more often and need more accessories...its all about bottom line....j/k).

My average crossbow customer is over the age of 40...and often over 50. Most acctually have a heck of a lot of archery experience, but have bum shoulders or back and other pains that generally come from a life of work.

What really makes me happy, is to see a fellow who I sold a crossbow to come back in with his wife, who has decided to take up hunting, and thinks the crossbow is the right way to go. Not just a repeat customer bringing in more business, but more importantly,thats a sucess for hunting...and quite often I suspect it will make a marriage stronger....I know hunting is something that my Lady and I love to do together...bow hunting, duck hunting, bird huntingand turkey hunting. I see more and more couples hunting together today than ever before, and I think its great for hunting and for the instiution of marriage both.

Most of the hatred that you hear from other hunters about crossbows is born from ignorance. People do not like what they do not understand, and often are frightened by it. These are no different. I wonder exactly what percentage of the anti crossbow gang are not bow hunters at all...just firearms hunters? I'd suspect its few...if any at all.

DJH -------

Swamp Collie - Just curious, what state do you live in?