Gary Alt (A Man With the "Right" Plan)
09-11-2002, 04:05 PM
#11
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Phoenixville, PA USA
Posts: 5,541
RE: Gary Alt (A Man With the "Right" Plan)
Cardeer and others, there has to be a point when hunters become accountable for game management. Pennsylvania perfectly illustrates a state where hunter accountability is practically zero. You said that by increasing doe tags more buttons will be shot. If hunters take the time to scope a deer's head for buttons before blasting away this won't happen. Hunter accountability. You say a 2 point (I am guessing you mean a spike) with a nub for a brow tine can be legally shot. First off, no it cannot. The law states 3 points on one side (4 in western PA), meaning a buck must have a main beam with at least two tines measuring an inch or longer. If it is me, I am letting a buck like that walk anyway, especially during bow season. Again hunter accountability.
I do agree with what you say about management areas and public land, but there is nothing the state can do about privately owned land. They can't make land owners let hunters on the land. If hunters were more accountable for their actions maybe land owners would be more apt to let people hunt. I know that if I owned property I sure wouldn't let some of the clowns I see on opening day on my land, because they are not accountable for their actions. Did I mention that hunters in PA need to be more accountable?<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
I do agree with what you say about management areas and public land, but there is nothing the state can do about privately owned land. They can't make land owners let hunters on the land. If hunters were more accountable for their actions maybe land owners would be more apt to let people hunt. I know that if I owned property I sure wouldn't let some of the clowns I see on opening day on my land, because they are not accountable for their actions. Did I mention that hunters in PA need to be more accountable?<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
09-11-2002, 04:07 PM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Martinsburg, WV
Posts: 3,215
RE: Gary Alt (A Man With the "Right" Plan)
I'd be willing to bet a TON of bucks that dont meet the "management" size will be shot and left there to rot and waste. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
09-11-2002, 04:13 PM
#13
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Macungie Pa USA
Posts: 79
RE: Gary Alt (A Man With the "Right" Plan)
Im not sure about certain peole that have a problem with Alt's ideas on this subject. How would you feel if he said a 6 point or more antlered deer. Some may probably protest and not buy a license the first year but you'll be back the following year. And so what if you had to only harvest an anterless deer. It wouldnt be the worse thing that will ever happen.
Good Luck to all this season. AND think for the moment how many of our hunting community died one year ago today that no longer have the option to hunt.
Im Sorry if I sound mad.
Good Luck to all this season. AND think for the moment how many of our hunting community died one year ago today that no longer have the option to hunt.
Im Sorry if I sound mad.
09-11-2002, 05:56 PM
#14
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
RE: Gary Alt (A Man With the "Right" Plan)
What Alt is taliking about is the best way to have a healthy heard and to have quality deer.This program does work and does work for the best.
Think about it this way.Would you rather go hunting and see 30 under sized deer that are searching for food or would you rather go hunting and see 15 deer that are healthy with plenty to eat and there might be 1-2 trophies in the bunch.
We use a similar management program in Ky.The best thing is that bowhunters get to take the majority of the deer.I see trophys every year now.I also get to kill as many does that I want to buy tags for.(in the zone I hunt).I only get 1 antlered tag and it can be any size I want.
You must take those does if you are going to have a healthy deer heard.They are the ones that have the babies so they are the ones that need to be thinned out.
Edited by - tfox on 09/11/2002 17:57:21
Edited by - tfox on 09/11/2002 17:58:19
Think about it this way.Would you rather go hunting and see 30 under sized deer that are searching for food or would you rather go hunting and see 15 deer that are healthy with plenty to eat and there might be 1-2 trophies in the bunch.
We use a similar management program in Ky.The best thing is that bowhunters get to take the majority of the deer.I see trophys every year now.I also get to kill as many does that I want to buy tags for.(in the zone I hunt).I only get 1 antlered tag and it can be any size I want.
You must take those does if you are going to have a healthy deer heard.They are the ones that have the babies so they are the ones that need to be thinned out.
Edited by - tfox on 09/11/2002 17:57:21
Edited by - tfox on 09/11/2002 17:58:19
09-11-2002, 07:10 PM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903
RE: Gary Alt (A Man With the "Right" Plan)
I think it's too early to say the program "works for the best" , time will tell.
From what I see , he has a different agenda than his supporters. The majority (if not all) of his supporters , like his plan because it will increase your odds of seeing quality bucks.
His agenda is aimed at decreasing the deer herd.(<big fat period)
I'm guessing that Pa was comparable to Wi , say 20 or 30 years ago , where you could shoot a buck only (one) unless you were lucky enough to draw a doe tag<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>
If I'm correct , this was done for many years to increase the deer herd.
Now , we're faced with over population , so their doing the exact opposite of 20 years ago.
At what point do you think they'll stop?
Maybe when a hunter can go out and be lucky to see a couple deer per season , like 30 years ago.
When you start forcing people to shoot countless amounts of does (or nub bucks) every season(for those who want the meat) , eventually it may have a drastic effect on the entire deer herd. All it would take , would be a record doe harvest for a couple years and throw in a harsh winter kill and everyone will be screaming at Gary Alt.
It's just a possibility , and I hope I'm wrong.
From what I see , he has a different agenda than his supporters. The majority (if not all) of his supporters , like his plan because it will increase your odds of seeing quality bucks.
His agenda is aimed at decreasing the deer herd.(<big fat period)
I'm guessing that Pa was comparable to Wi , say 20 or 30 years ago , where you could shoot a buck only (one) unless you were lucky enough to draw a doe tag<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>
If I'm correct , this was done for many years to increase the deer herd.
Now , we're faced with over population , so their doing the exact opposite of 20 years ago.
At what point do you think they'll stop?
Maybe when a hunter can go out and be lucky to see a couple deer per season , like 30 years ago.
When you start forcing people to shoot countless amounts of does (or nub bucks) every season(for those who want the meat) , eventually it may have a drastic effect on the entire deer herd. All it would take , would be a record doe harvest for a couple years and throw in a harsh winter kill and everyone will be screaming at Gary Alt.
It's just a possibility , and I hope I'm wrong.
09-11-2002, 07:20 PM
#16
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Phoenixville, PA USA
Posts: 5,541
RE: Gary Alt (A Man With the "Right" Plan)
I am completely supportive of these efforts and feel they are long over due. New Jersey has been using similar tactics the last several years and taken it one step further. They have an "earn-a-buck" program through much of the state in which you have to first shoot a doe (antlerless deer) before you get your buck tag.
Like in PA there was resistance to this when it was first instated, but now it has gained acceptance, or at least people have gotten used to it. On one of the properties we hunt you could expect to see 50-60 deer every time in the field, but they were all small and the bucks were basket racks. Now, you don't see near as many deer, but the deer you do see are much bigger and healthier (bucks and does) and there are at least 3 P&Y bucks on the property and about 6 or 7 good 2.5 year old 6-8 points. If you are a trophy hunter you have better opportunities and if you are a meat hunter you have better deer. With results like that, I don't know why anyone would complain.
Edited by - huntingbry on 09/11/2002 19:26:08
Like in PA there was resistance to this when it was first instated, but now it has gained acceptance, or at least people have gotten used to it. On one of the properties we hunt you could expect to see 50-60 deer every time in the field, but they were all small and the bucks were basket racks. Now, you don't see near as many deer, but the deer you do see are much bigger and healthier (bucks and does) and there are at least 3 P&Y bucks on the property and about 6 or 7 good 2.5 year old 6-8 points. If you are a trophy hunter you have better opportunities and if you are a meat hunter you have better deer. With results like that, I don't know why anyone would complain.
Edited by - huntingbry on 09/11/2002 19:26:08
09-11-2002, 08:52 PM
#17
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: Gary Alt (A Man With the "Right" Plan)
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I do agree with what you say about management areas and public land, but there is nothing the state can do about privately owned land. They can't make land owners let hunters on the land. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
..and there in lies the problem. The area of PA that Cardeer and I live in is so lacking in terms of public hunting land that it is usually packed with hunters. So, what happens then? The deer just mosey (spelling?) over onto the private land where hunting isn't allowed....regardless of why it isn't allowed it is still the same scenario. More landowners need to work with the game commission to open their land to responsible hunters. The Game Commission has a co-op program called "Link" that is supposed to hook up hunters with landowners. The last time I checked there were "zero" landowners in my area signed up.
The road goes both ways.
..and there in lies the problem. The area of PA that Cardeer and I live in is so lacking in terms of public hunting land that it is usually packed with hunters. So, what happens then? The deer just mosey (spelling?) over onto the private land where hunting isn't allowed....regardless of why it isn't allowed it is still the same scenario. More landowners need to work with the game commission to open their land to responsible hunters. The Game Commission has a co-op program called "Link" that is supposed to hook up hunters with landowners. The last time I checked there were "zero" landowners in my area signed up.
The road goes both ways.
09-11-2002, 09:22 PM
#18
Spike
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Williamsport PA. USA
Posts: 91
RE: Gary Alt (A Man With the "Right" Plan)
Alts plan has one flaw you cant manage a whole state the way he is trying to do it. In the area where our camp is we had 16 guys for a week and didnt kill a deer. We voted not to take does because of the low deer numbers. There are places in PA. that does have more deer than it can support but there are also places that dont. The game commission needs to address this problem before they try to do this statewide. As for bigger racks why does everyone have a antler fetish? Any deer taken legally and ethically is a trophy to someone. What gives some people the right to tell me or anyone else what they should shoot? If a person is happy shooting spikes and small bucks so what? If you want to hold out for a big buck that is up to you but dont put down the person that chooses not to. The old argument take does for meat doesnt wash with me. I have shot more does than bucks anyway and will still continue to shoot does but I am concerned about the way deer management is taking in Pa.
09-11-2002, 10:21 PM
#19
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Hughesville, PA USA
Posts: 18,322
RE: Gary Alt (A Man With the "Right" Plan)
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I'd be willing to bet a TON of bucks that dont meet the "management" size will be shot and left there to rot and waste. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Then shame on those that do such a cowardly act. They are nothing more than slobs who shouldn't be in the woods in the first place. AND if everyone takes the time to make ethical shots, they should be able to first IDENTIFY THEIR TARGET. That's the elementary first law before pulling the trigger.
<font color=blue>Good Luck and Good Shooting</font id=blue>
<font color=red>Rob</font id=red>
I'd be willing to bet a TON of bucks that dont meet the "management" size will be shot and left there to rot and waste. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Then shame on those that do such a cowardly act. They are nothing more than slobs who shouldn't be in the woods in the first place. AND if everyone takes the time to make ethical shots, they should be able to first IDENTIFY THEIR TARGET. That's the elementary first law before pulling the trigger.
<font color=blue>Good Luck and Good Shooting</font id=blue>
<font color=red>Rob</font id=red>
09-12-2002, 03:02 AM
#20
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 15,451
RE: Gary Alt (A Man With the "Right" Plan)
Huntingbry, What I meant is in my area a deer with only one side of a rack that has 2 points on that one side and a nub for a brow tine it is legal.In the four point area 3 pts plus a nub for a brow is legal. We did not gain anything much. I'm not against all of Alts plan.Just wish more study and smaller mamagement areas would of been established.There way of counting the deer population is also a joke.I wish he would of made the antler restrictions higher .I would say a full six pointer with even the brow tine needing to be 1 inch not a nub.I'm not a trophy hunter ,but at least the deer would live to be older then a 1 1/2. And I dont shoot buttons myself.But when the deer drives are put on theses guys just empty there guns till everything drops.In my area anyway!!! I think they should make us tag a button with are buck tag. I have seen land posted this year that has not been ever posted.When ask why, the landowners response was I dont want all the deer slaughtered,Did you see all the doe permits the PGC gave out? That was there answer.Just less land to hunt.And the state no-gamelands are a joke around here 5 deer a sguare mile and 50 hunters a square mile. I know some is going to say well find somewhere eles to hunt. Its hard to travel a couple hundred miles everyday for 3 months to travel out of the SE section of the state to the west or north. I hunt everyday and would like to do it near my home.I probably wont even hunt much this year it has become a waste of time.I dont need to shoot a deer everytime I go hunting ,but sure would like to see a deer once and a while.I've sat already 8 times this past 2 weeks and seen a total of 5 deer in 8 days.3 fawns one mature doe and a spike. BIG Whoop. It gets worse every year.And FOOD is not a issue here in the arigculture area. I never seen a skinny or starving deer even in the 70"s when we would see 60 deer a day. Right next to my house in a posted area I can see up to a 100 deer in a field ,but it is closed to huntin and they have plenty of food.no over browse ,but 5000 acres of corn,grains,clovers and all kinds of stuff thart the owner lets stand all year. Some how those posted areas filled up with deer must be put in to the figures the state calculates.A lot of deer in that area ,lots of road kills ,so the state increases the doe tags,but that is useless if the tags cant be filled.All it does is make the open lands crowed with hunters and the few deer left run to the closed land.Them deer on the antihunting and posted land should not even be put in to the equation when the state is setting the amount of doe tags.Them deer dont even exist as far as the hunter is concerned if you cant hunt them.