Leverdude

They might, I wont.
I already did what your planning to do. I got a crossbow just to get it. Its not fancy & the trigger sucks but it shoots groups just fine & that with several different spined arrows & different weight heads. Its just plain consistant in all the ways we as archers strive to be. I'm not argueing with you just trying to explain what I have found to be true. Its not a long distance weapon, I can shoot my bow further with confidence than I can the crossbow but that may well be because I shoot my bow alot more. Drop past 25 is faster than my bow.
I'm not in anyway knocking crossbows, just stating that theyre easier to use in a hunting situation. Slower to reload is the only point I can come up with where they lose & that almost a moot point as bowhunting is usually a one shot deal for me.

Bob H in NH

I have shot both and have two issues:

- the drawing in the presence of a deer with a bow, its MUCH harder to do this with a deer in range, than a xbow which functions like a gun and requires much less movement. However, your commentn about the trad bow/compound bow is somewhat valid.

My MAIN issue with crossbows is the reason spouted to introduce them, they want MORE hunters. Now wait, my objection to this is that if it IS based on biological ability, fine, add them in. However, here in NH we have about a 5-7% success rate and for most of the state the deer herd is much lower than F&g goals, some areas are UNDER 2 deer per sq mile. IN this case more hunters is a bad thing, it will result in more deer killed which is bad for the herd, and YES, I am in favor of reducing the season/limits in these areas as now. If the area needs more deer killed, I have no real issue with introducing crossbows, I would like to see them singled out as a different season, using an archery tag possibly, similar to how NH does muzzleloaders, they have their own season but use the firearms deer tag, however in some of the state you can shoot a doe.

Crossbows ARE easier and quicker to get decent with. Your claim of 3-5 inch groups at 20 yards, I don't consider that hunt ready, consistent 3 inch groups, sure, but 5 inch groups, nope. I also believe you will find that as you go to 30 yards your groups will double in size, or close to it. As the target gets perceived to be smaller, you will have a harder time holding on it. Most archers have a "slam dunk" shot range and most have a range where beyond that their groups just fall apart big time.

I have taught new archers to shoot compounds and had them inside 5 inch groups in well under 30 minutes. I have helped new crossbow shooters, who were already gun shooters, and they were slapping arrows against each other within 15 minutes. HUGE difference.

In the hands of an expert, however I will take the compound shooter over a crossbow shooter, especially as the range gets longer.

--Bob

datamax

Bob H in NH if your archery season is that crowded, perhaps you need to start an intiative to ban compounds ? I bet 95% of your archery hunters are compound shooter are they not ? I looked and could not find what total percentage of your states deer harvest was gun killed and archery killed. Do you know ? My point is, most states from a harvest/management tool views shows archery kill a minimal impact. In states that they have a significant impact, its compound shooters doing the killing. So suggesting that a crossbow would be an impact like you suggest is merely pointing out the existing impact and subsequent problems that the compound bow presents, doesn't it ?

Then you must be 100% against recurve and longbow shooters ? They do not hold near that kind of grouping.

30 minutes to accuracy vs 15 minutes ........... thats not huge at all. A rifle takes that long to sight in. 3" groups with a rifle aint bad and you're expecting this of compounds ? But for arguments sake, let us assume that the crossbow, compound shooters can hold 3" groups to 25 yards. A recurve/longbow shooter can never hold those groups even the best of the best can't.

It seems that people use the " crossbow is easier " argument to validate banning them from archery season when compared to compounds. Yet when people say " compounds are easier " to validate banning them from archery season when compared to recurve/longbows it gets very quiet.

Can you explain that based on your views of accuracy between those weapons ?

Leverdude

Dude, you just want to argue.
If all you could do was 3" at 30 yards with a rifle thats not too good IMO.
A crossbows easier period. That doesnt make it bad, just easier. I can see why people might be inclined to think it doesn't belong in the archery season. As I said earlier (or maybe a different thread) I'd like to see them legal during firearms season in bow only areas but the more I ponder this (mostly because of this thread) the more I get to thinking it shouldnt be in the regular archery season. Give them a season of theyre own.

A person who never shot a bow before can't just pick one up & shoot it well. You said you just started AGAIN after a few years. Thats because your muscles already knew what to do. Kinda like riding a bike.

A crossbow can be picked up & a 3 year old could shoot it. My 8 year old shoots my crossbow darn near as well as I do but cant hit a barn with his little bow & arrow. Well maybe a barn but not the door
I should say tho that he shot guns, which operate & are sighted just like a crossbow since he was 4.

A bow needs to be tuned to you, a perticular person & you have to be tuned to it as well in order to shoot regular good groups.

A crossbow just needs to be sighted in & shot. Dont matter if your 5' tall with a 24"draw or 7'6" with a 40 inch draw, once sighted in you just pick it up & shoot.

I'v yet to find someone who's bow I can shoot to the same point of impact with regularity I can get close but were I to hunt with it I'd a had to sight in every one.

Another thing your mistaken on is that no ones trying to ban them, people are trying to get them accepted.
No one should have to prove that theyre not acceptable, rather the burden should be on those who want them accepted. Prove to me that a crossbow isn't alot easier to shoot well.
Thats gonna be hard to do because I know that if I put down my bow for a month even. When next I shoot it takes a few arrows before I'm where I am right now.

I also know I can pick up that xbow after a year, cock it, nock a bolt & get a good rest (another thing you cant do with a bow) & drill a matchbook 20 yards away 9 times outta ten. Cant do that regular with my compound right now & I'v been shooting it at least 6 shots at least every
other day since Sept when the season opened. Can hit a playing card every time but the matchbooks just too small for my form I guess.

All thats been said already, if you still think its harder to shoot a crossbow than a compound then its obvious that thats what you believe.

No big deal really, you asked & I tried to explain.

datamax

Like compounds were ?

Maybe you are right. But in the end, I think my argument is strong that compounds and crossbows are all really fairly easy to shoot with very minimal practice and acceptable accuracy. See the post above, the guy can get people shooting acceptable accurancy within 15-30 minutes with either "bow" yet we all know recurve and longbow shooters do not have near this accuracy. Based on the argument that easier decides what should and should not be allowed in archery season, its clear then that neither compounds nor crossbows belong. But the crux of this is that most everyone shoots compounds, so there convictions and arguments and beliefs contradict their choice of weapons in legal archery season.

I am going hunting next weekend. My goal is to get within 20 yards of a good buck. Nothing, absolutely nothing about the hunt will change with the type of bow I have in my hand until its time to shoot. If I have a compound I'll draw when the deer isn't in my presence (his head behind a tree or as he's coming in) and will draw with a triggered release, and shoot a quiet bow with high maneuverability and high speed and 3-5" accuracy. If I have a crossbow, I'll wait until he'd 20 yards and in postion and shoot a very clumsy and loud bow, high speed with 3-5" accuracy. both fairly easy shooting. if I take my recurve, I'll have to wait until the exact moment and exact postion, then make the movements of drawing, using fingers and no triggers or sights, full weight of the draw, quiet bow and slow arrows with maybe 8-10" accuracy at 20 yards.

Only when I choose to shoot does what bow in my hand matter, and the crossbow and compound are very close in the performance they give and the ease of shooting. the recurve is vastly different

Leverdude

The difference is that HE helped them & showed them what to do. They couldnt just buy one, open the box & shoot it. Matter of fact, if they practice before they hunt I think most will find its not as easy in real life as it is in a shop at a known distance. I know I was humbled. I may well be wrong as I'v shot guns for years & when I picked up a crossbow found it much easier than a compound to master, it was almost boring.

I suppose that compound shooters had a battle getting into the game in theyre time & all the things you said are true, recurves are harder than compounds. So what, you asked about xbows, had you asked about recurves vs compounds I'd a told you compounds are easier. Your still drawing & shooting a bow tho & IMO thats the key difference.

kevin1

Bob H in NH

Well if you are going to argue, you need to use what I say, now what you want to hear.

Not crowded with hunters, just the deer herd needs to grow, so as they usually argue here for crossbows "to allow more people to hunt", this makes no sense, we need to kill less deer not more. In fact, historically for the last several years the largest increase in the deer kill has been muzzleloader hunters, this has skyrocketed. They get a 10 day season before general firearms season, and get more liberal doe allowances. Archers take I believe (couldn't find it for this year) less than 2K of these deer.

Overall statewide, all seasons NH runs around % success rate, we run around 80K hunters who take about 10K deer (using this years numbers) that's 12.5, I couldn't find the breakdown, but a "normal" archer success is around 5-7%. The states goals for the herd is to GROW it, so adding more weapons and more seasons is not the right answer. Statstically reducing the archery season won't matter, since we take relatively few, reducing the gun season/muzzleloader season would need to be done to make up for the increase, this wouldn't fly well with the NH hunters. I would assume a crossbow hunter to be as successfull as a compound hunter, maybe even less. So figure another 1600 deer killed on top of the 10K we already get and this will reduce a deer herd when it needs to grow, if our current kill rate is resulting in a steady to slowly declining herd, why add more to the kill?

I am not going to argue this with you, but no I don't consider a 3-5 inch group good enough to hunt, just ask my kids who will NOT bow hunt until they can hold inside 5 inches every time at 20 yards with a bow. As for traditional hunters, the ones I know that hunt with them will shoot 3-5 inch groups with them. I have one and won't hunt with it for just that reason. As a group, these folks are also more experienced hunters so less effected by things like buck fever. A typical in your yard 3-5 inch group will grow to 5-8 inches very quickly in the woods. i will conceed that if you can hold EVERY arrow at 20 yards INSIDE 5 inches, you are good to hunt AT 20 yards. But no larger than that.

READ what I said, crossbow shooters at 20 yards in 15 minutes SLAPPING SHAFTS together! HUGE DIFFERENCE from a 5 inch group to a 1 inch group.

3 inch groups with a rifle, off a bench is horrible.

I have never argued for them to be excluded based on accuracy. Never, I have pointed out they are much easier to get accurate quickly with over a compound, and you are right a compound is much quicker to get accurate with over a traditional bow.

I argue against crossbows for two reasons, one VERY valid in my state, one valid, in my opinion, anywhere:

- NH deer herd cannot handle another weapon added to the list. If they are looking to increase hunter participation (which NH has held fairly steady over the years) this will ONLY raise the kill, which will not be beneficial to the deer herd. Now IF we were in a state where they needed to take more deer, that removes this objection.

- Crossbow, in my opinion is NOT a bow. It is not hand drawn, its it not held at full draw by hand, it is not drawn in the presence of the animal. First two speak to the definition of a bow (actually we have laws against things like draw=loc etc, that keep a bow mechanically at/near full draw), the third goes to the primary difficulty in deer hunting. I was at a F&G meeting discussing cross bows when Mr. Horton from Horton crossbows said the reason he hunts with a crossbow is BECAUSE he got tired of the animals catching him drawing the bow! Well sorry, this is part of the game! I actually have no objection to crossbows, I just feel they belong in their own season, they are not archery. Of course, should they be added somewhere, at least here in NH adjustments need be made to reduce the kill in some other areas.

--Bob

Bob H in NH

Lets be fair here, setting up a crossbow is actually VERY hard, I have setup and tuned a few and find it MUCH harder to get good flight than I do in tuning a compound. However once done, they are quicker/easier to learn to shoot, not that this is a bad thing.

The introduction of compounds was brought up, this happened over ALOT of objection from traditional shooters about how there weren't bows etc. all the arguments we have today over crossbows. The point is, there is a line somewhere, its what makes it viable to have seperate seasons for different weapons, the line moves from time to time, the line is re-adjusted from time to time and there are arguments on both sides to move or not move it. For this instance I personally don't agree with moving the "archery" line to include crossbows.

A similar argument is starting in muzzleloader areas, with the introduction of in-lines and the growing technology there, a modern muzzleloader has blown away the abilities of the muzzleloader that existed when muzzleloaders got their own season. That fight is brewing to re-draw that line as well.

--Bob

Leverdude

Got my cross bow second hand & it was assembled. Got my bows second hand & they came naked.
Nope, I'm not bored with the bow yet at all, I like to tinker & they sure offer alot of oportunities for tinkering.
Might be different with the xbow if I could hunt with it but I cant & shooting it out back at targets I got bored. Put a lazer red dot sight from an airgun on it & you cant miss. You put that dot on what you want to hit & squeeze the trigger & you got it. I shoot my 3d tartget at 25 from the hip. Cant hit a match book like that but keeping them in the kill zone is a simple matter. Again I'm not knocking crossbows, just saying theyre easier to shoot acurately with less hassle. If they allowed it here I'd use one for sure, but I'd still know its easier than a bow, which is easier than a spear & so on. That was his question, somewhere it got to be why cant he use it in archery season & thats one I dont have the answer to. I want to say, sure as it flings arrows & is therefore subject to the same limitations, at the same time I know its easier to hunt with.
Theres been more than one time I would of gotten a deer if I could point & shoot so to speak. I'v been busted drawing, I'v been left hanging till my eyes were poping out waiting at full draw for an animal to take one more step, bout 2 weeks ago I was stuck in my stand 2 cold to draw my bow as a couple does fed within 20 yards of me. That part, the murphy factor so to speak is an important part of what I call bowhunting.
I dont regret the missed shot opertunities because I like being out there & if every hunt was a slam dunk I'd get bored I think.

So again, I think they are definately easier to shoot acurately & while I dont know if they should or shouldnt be allowed during bow season if they were I'd definately give it a shot. I'd try if theyu had theyre own season as well, which is probably the best option. IMO