Passing up BUCKS.... sometimes, i wonder what the POINT IS
12-17-2003, 11:20 AM
#61
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Heaven IA USA
Posts: 2,597
RE: Passing up BUCKS.... sometimes, i wonder what the POINT IS
A guy has to love how these threads "morph" into something entirely different than the original intent.
There is no question that different parts of the country produce different results in both quantity and quality. Just like ones view of a trophy can vary by region. Some measure a trophy in terms of simply making a kill, some by number of points, some by weight (ever hear of the 300 pound club?) and others by calibrating the inches in a rack. Each of those examples is exciting in their own right. Who could argue that?
However, getting back to the original question of passing on a buck, with the exception of the the first case (making a kill), generallly speaking the main ingredient in taking a "trophy" is the age of the animal. Regardless of how great the genetics, habitat, or the nutritional intake of the animal is, unless he is allowed to reach maturity, he cannot and will not reach his full potential in any catagory. That is not a theory or an ideology, it is reality. Thus, if a person desires to compete for larger animals in his/her hunting area one has to at least consider the option of letting the smaller/younger animals walk.
Ah, now we have a problem....As has been pointed out, there are places where one doesn't have the luxury of picking and choosing (strictly speaking) the animal they harvest. Because of time restraints or a hundred other reasons they may only be able to spend precious few hours in the stand. If a spike or a fork horn walks by I couldn't criticize their decision to kill the buck (although statstically speaking they would be doing the herd a favor if they could shoot a doe instead
but I am assuming that opportunity didn't present itself). In many places there is another hunter sitting in a tree 100 yards (or less) from your position. In other words hunting pressure is so severe that it is a challenge to get in a position for even a shot. I have been there. It is frustrating.
Then there is the person that is not the slightest bit interested in horns, deer dynamics, or anything remotely having to do with a "trophy". All they know is that they are out in the woods, hunting, away from the stresses of the everyday grind. Their mind set is; If it's brown its down, if it flys it dies, if it runs you hear guns, if it has marrow it gets an arrow, four feet and an eye its going to die, wack'em and stack'em. The bottom line is as long as all this is done within the confines of the law no one has a right to require that they think any different. And by the same token, the person who subscribes to showing some discipline in letting smaller/younger bucks walk should be shown the same courtesy.
As far as watching a buck grow for 4 or 5 years and then killing him, I have (what I would consider) an interesting story on a 190" buck that was taken two days ago but I just don't have the time to include it here.
Now about that "Mine is bigger and better and harder to get than yours" issue, well, that is a discussion for another day
.....
There is no question that different parts of the country produce different results in both quantity and quality. Just like ones view of a trophy can vary by region. Some measure a trophy in terms of simply making a kill, some by number of points, some by weight (ever hear of the 300 pound club?) and others by calibrating the inches in a rack. Each of those examples is exciting in their own right. Who could argue that?
However, getting back to the original question of passing on a buck, with the exception of the the first case (making a kill), generallly speaking the main ingredient in taking a "trophy" is the age of the animal. Regardless of how great the genetics, habitat, or the nutritional intake of the animal is, unless he is allowed to reach maturity, he cannot and will not reach his full potential in any catagory. That is not a theory or an ideology, it is reality. Thus, if a person desires to compete for larger animals in his/her hunting area one has to at least consider the option of letting the smaller/younger animals walk.
Ah, now we have a problem....As has been pointed out, there are places where one doesn't have the luxury of picking and choosing (strictly speaking) the animal they harvest. Because of time restraints or a hundred other reasons they may only be able to spend precious few hours in the stand. If a spike or a fork horn walks by I couldn't criticize their decision to kill the buck (although statstically speaking they would be doing the herd a favor if they could shoot a doe instead
but I am assuming that opportunity didn't present itself). In many places there is another hunter sitting in a tree 100 yards (or less) from your position. In other words hunting pressure is so severe that it is a challenge to get in a position for even a shot. I have been there. It is frustrating. Then there is the person that is not the slightest bit interested in horns, deer dynamics, or anything remotely having to do with a "trophy". All they know is that they are out in the woods, hunting, away from the stresses of the everyday grind. Their mind set is; If it's brown its down, if it flys it dies, if it runs you hear guns, if it has marrow it gets an arrow, four feet and an eye its going to die, wack'em and stack'em. The bottom line is as long as all this is done within the confines of the law no one has a right to require that they think any different. And by the same token, the person who subscribes to showing some discipline in letting smaller/younger bucks walk should be shown the same courtesy.
As far as watching a buck grow for 4 or 5 years and then killing him, I have (what I would consider) an interesting story on a 190" buck that was taken two days ago but I just don't have the time to include it here.
Now about that "Mine is bigger and better and harder to get than yours" issue, well, that is a discussion for another day
.....
12-17-2003, 12:47 PM
#62
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blossvale, New York
Posts: 21,199
RE: Passing up BUCKS.... sometimes, i wonder what the POINT IS
Now about that "Mine is bigger and better and harder to get than yours" issue, well, that is a discussion for another day
12-17-2003, 02:03 PM
#64
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 4,668
RE: Passing up BUCKS.... sometimes, i wonder what the POINT IS
ORIGINAL: Rack-attack
How obvious does it have to be??????
This is a super example of how you knock down other peoples trophies. Hunters that sacrifice for years and try to establish a healthy age structure to better get a chance at a good buck are really not shooting a trophy according to you
How obvious does it have to be??????
This is a super example of how you knock down other peoples trophies. Hunters that sacrifice for years and try to establish a healthy age structure to better get a chance at a good buck are really not shooting a trophy according to you
A deer that has learned through experience how to avoid the human assault is much more likely to avoid being killed the longest. Even their luck runs out someday but many other deer will be taken before anyone finds where they hide.
Ever watch Caribu hunts on The Outdoor Channel?? They fly into places that the Caribu have never seen people and they don't get hunted hardly at all. Some of them stand there and stare at the hunters trying to figure out what they are because they don't see hunters very much. Now if those things got hunted HARD every year you can bet your arse that herd would develope a keen sense of human presence and bolt when saw the first signs of people invading the shores.
– Not a trophy like you got – that’s a real trophy.
Your deer are the smartest.
All bucks are dumb at 1.5 to 2.5 years old – letting them walk makes them NO easier to hunt when they are 4.5 yrs old.
If you had more experience with it you would know that
We can't all be as great as you are Rack.
No – you are not really insulting anyone
Of course you never miss the opportunity to tell the hunter in Iowa that his 150 is not a trophy like your deer.
P.S.......I lived in Iowa for 4 years......and a 150 class buck is nice but it ain't gonna get too many locals all stirred up if ya know what I mean.......they are after the BIG boys out there bro. Very nice deer none the less.......but jaw dropping great???........nope.
Ahh – unlike yours that is the biggest ever shot in your area.
Funny how a guy who hunts for meat and states “it doesn’t matter what you have only what I have” is so concerned about what is on others walls.
Again what you are saying is if someone shoots big deer in an area where big deer are shot – then their trophy is not a trophy – just another buck in the crowd. Unlike yours, of course
A 10 lb Largemouth Bass is special.........unless you are fishing in a pond with tons of 10 pounders and a couple 15 pounders and one big ol' lunker near 20 lbs.............now your 10 pounder is still a really good fish but compared to what's in the pond he is just average.
Once again it is not good enough for you to state how proud you are of your great deer – But you always have to knock others in the same breathe because he doesn’t hunt in your badlands.
My emphasis on how special my deer was to take has nothing to do with putting other hunters down for not doing the equivalent in their woods. First of all I am sure many have. You just don't get it Rack. It's a real shame that you can't look at someone expressing genuine pride in taking a truely once in a blue moon deer without thinking they have some secret axe to grind against others.
From how much you post about what a trophy is in your eyes – and how many times you lessen the accomplishment of those that shoot trophies in better land than you have.
I can only conclude that you do wish you were one – or all these quotes would not exist.
Your ego is out of control man. You sit at your PC and really think everyone out there wishes they could be like you??
Time for a reality check dude.
12-17-2003, 07:26 PM
#65
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Little Egg harbor NJ
Posts: 1,279
RE: Passing up BUCKS.... sometimes, i wonder what the POINT IS
I know its very frustrating for you but you just never know. For me I only take a deer (buck) if I want to put him on my wall. So usually the smaller ones get passed over. But if a nice 8 comes by and he is only 2.5 years old if I want him I will take him with no problems. It just comes down to what I would like to take.
Brian
Brian
12-17-2003, 08:51 PM
#66
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Heaven IA USA
Posts: 2,597
RE: Passing up BUCKS.... sometimes, i wonder what the POINT IS
I'm not sure why I would continue to add to this thread. I guess just to pass on information. You will have to take it for what its worth to your situation.
I am always hesitant to reveal any type of personal information on a forum such as this because unlike face to face communication where there is physical expression, voice inflection, and other means of emphasis during the communication to keep the intent of the message clear, it is easy in an environment like this to twist words, meanings, and be misunderstood in general. What I may say in an effort to add weight to my statements could be interpreted by some to be self serving, bragging, or an attempt at putting myself on a pedestal. Further I think that cyber space is a perfect place for making outlandish claims simply because there is no accountability. A person with experience can sort out the treasure from the trash in most cases but even then sometimes the line between the two gets blurred.
At any rate, here is some background on how I have gone about things in the last few years in the core area (home turf) that I hunt. That of course means I am not including any of my out of State hunting.
I will spend in the neighborhood of 300 hours sitting in a treestand on the properties that I hunt. I do not hunt these places exclusively, in other words there are other hunters hunting these places also. The above hours of course do not include scouting, putting up tree stands, moving treestands, cutting lanes, hunting sheds etc. I do not consider myself an "expert" when it comes to sorting out the life of a whitetail but I can usually tell fact from fiction.
It was mentioned that "If you let a deer walk by 20 times in his life he doesn't magically get smarter one day...." I guess my reply to that is that there is nothing magical about it. It is actually an evolution of sorts. A mature buck by nature is a completely different animal than an immature buck. In adition to acquiring the normal learned behavior along the way, he grows ever more wary, reclusive, and becomes nearly totally nocturnal. If a person thinks that they are going to watch a buck mature for four years and then go out and put an arrow through him will be sorely disappointed 99.9% of the time.
Three days ago a 190" (gross green score) was shot by a party of gun hunters. The bare field where the buck was killed was less than a mile from a woods where some of my stands are hung. The buck can be aged anywhere from 3 1/2 on up. Because of the number of years I have hunted this woods, and the amount of young bucks I let walk (yes I am lucky to have that luxury) I can almost guarantee you that at one time or another in that bucks young life he has walked by me in the tree. Here is the rub...for at least two years I have not seen this guy even though I have spent a considerable amount of time pursuing him and his relatives and have certainly seen evidence that he existed. Though he may indeed have been the biggest buck cruising this piece of real estate there are other good bucks also, I have the sheds to prove that. However, try as I may with the exception of sighting one buck, I have got not even a whiff of any of them in the last two years. While one could interpret this as an incrimination of my hunting skills (you wouldn't get an arguement from me), I have done nothing radically different than I did in scoring on a number of book bucks in the past.
Here are a few more statistics I find interesting. The county that I live in and do most of my hunting in geographically speaking is about average size for the state. According to the DNR we rank 6th in terms of trophy bucks registered. The numbers for trophies registered between October 2002 and July 2003 were just published the 15th of this month. To have your buck registered it must meet the following Qualifying Score (net) Bow Non-Typical 155; Bow Typical 135: Shotgun Non-Typical 170; Shotgun Typical 150: Muzzleloader Non-Typical 170; Muzzleloader Typical 150; Pistol Non-Typical 170; Pistol Typical 150.
Care to guess how many trophies were registered for my county last year for all catagories combined (That is typical and nontypical for Bow, Shotgun, Muzzleloader, and Pistol)?
I am always hesitant to reveal any type of personal information on a forum such as this because unlike face to face communication where there is physical expression, voice inflection, and other means of emphasis during the communication to keep the intent of the message clear, it is easy in an environment like this to twist words, meanings, and be misunderstood in general. What I may say in an effort to add weight to my statements could be interpreted by some to be self serving, bragging, or an attempt at putting myself on a pedestal. Further I think that cyber space is a perfect place for making outlandish claims simply because there is no accountability. A person with experience can sort out the treasure from the trash in most cases but even then sometimes the line between the two gets blurred.
At any rate, here is some background on how I have gone about things in the last few years in the core area (home turf) that I hunt. That of course means I am not including any of my out of State hunting.
I will spend in the neighborhood of 300 hours sitting in a treestand on the properties that I hunt. I do not hunt these places exclusively, in other words there are other hunters hunting these places also. The above hours of course do not include scouting, putting up tree stands, moving treestands, cutting lanes, hunting sheds etc. I do not consider myself an "expert" when it comes to sorting out the life of a whitetail but I can usually tell fact from fiction.
It was mentioned that "If you let a deer walk by 20 times in his life he doesn't magically get smarter one day...." I guess my reply to that is that there is nothing magical about it. It is actually an evolution of sorts. A mature buck by nature is a completely different animal than an immature buck. In adition to acquiring the normal learned behavior along the way, he grows ever more wary, reclusive, and becomes nearly totally nocturnal. If a person thinks that they are going to watch a buck mature for four years and then go out and put an arrow through him will be sorely disappointed 99.9% of the time.
Three days ago a 190" (gross green score) was shot by a party of gun hunters. The bare field where the buck was killed was less than a mile from a woods where some of my stands are hung. The buck can be aged anywhere from 3 1/2 on up. Because of the number of years I have hunted this woods, and the amount of young bucks I let walk (yes I am lucky to have that luxury) I can almost guarantee you that at one time or another in that bucks young life he has walked by me in the tree. Here is the rub...for at least two years I have not seen this guy even though I have spent a considerable amount of time pursuing him and his relatives and have certainly seen evidence that he existed. Though he may indeed have been the biggest buck cruising this piece of real estate there are other good bucks also, I have the sheds to prove that. However, try as I may with the exception of sighting one buck, I have got not even a whiff of any of them in the last two years. While one could interpret this as an incrimination of my hunting skills (you wouldn't get an arguement from me
), I have done nothing radically different than I did in scoring on a number of book bucks in the past.Here are a few more statistics I find interesting. The county that I live in and do most of my hunting in geographically speaking is about average size for the state. According to the DNR we rank 6th in terms of trophy bucks registered. The numbers for trophies registered between October 2002 and July 2003 were just published the 15th of this month. To have your buck registered it must meet the following Qualifying Score (net) Bow Non-Typical 155; Bow Typical 135: Shotgun Non-Typical 170; Shotgun Typical 150: Muzzleloader Non-Typical 170; Muzzleloader Typical 150; Pistol Non-Typical 170; Pistol Typical 150.
Care to guess how many trophies were registered for my county last year for all catagories combined (That is typical and nontypical for Bow, Shotgun, Muzzleloader, and Pistol)?
12-17-2003, 10:05 PM
#67
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 4,668
RE: Passing up BUCKS.... sometimes, i wonder what the POINT IS
ORIGINAL: Antler Eater
I'm not sure why I would continue to add to this thread. I guess just to pass on information. You will have to take it for what its worth to your situation.
I am always hesitant to reveal any type of personal information on a forum such as this because unlike face to face communication where there is physical expression, voice inflection, and other means of emphasis during the communication to keep the intent of the message clear, it is easy in an environment like this to twist words, meanings, and be misunderstood in general. What I may say in an effort to add weight to my statements could be interpreted by some to be self serving, bragging, or an attempt at putting myself on a pedestal. Further I think that cyber space is a perfect place for making outlandish claims simply because there is no accountability. A person with experience can sort out the treasure from the trash in most cases but even then sometimes the line between the two gets blurred.
I'm not sure why I would continue to add to this thread. I guess just to pass on information. You will have to take it for what its worth to your situation.
I am always hesitant to reveal any type of personal information on a forum such as this because unlike face to face communication where there is physical expression, voice inflection, and other means of emphasis during the communication to keep the intent of the message clear, it is easy in an environment like this to twist words, meanings, and be misunderstood in general. What I may say in an effort to add weight to my statements could be interpreted by some to be self serving, bragging, or an attempt at putting myself on a pedestal. Further I think that cyber space is a perfect place for making outlandish claims simply because there is no accountability. A person with experience can sort out the treasure from the trash in most cases but even then sometimes the line between the two gets blurred.
I will spend in the neighborhood of 300 hours sitting in a treestand on the properties that I hunt. I do not hunt these places exclusively, in other words there are other hunters hunting these places also. The above hours of course do not include scouting, putting up tree stands, moving treestands, cutting lanes, hunting sheds etc. I do not consider myself an "expert" when it comes to sorting out the life of a whitetail but I can usually tell fact from fiction.
It was mentioned that "If you let a deer walk by 20 times in his life he doesn't magically get smarter one day...." I guess my reply to that is that there is nothing magical about it. It is actually an evolution of sorts. A mature buck by nature is a completely different animal than an immature buck. In adition to acquiring the normal learned behavior along the way, he grows ever more wary, reclusive, and becomes nearly totally nocturnal.
Three days ago a 190" (gross green score) was shot by a party of gun hunters. The bare field where the buck was killed was less than a mile from a woods where some of my stands are hung. The buck can be aged anywhere from 3 1/2 on up. Because of the number of years I have hunted this woods, and the amount of young bucks I let walk (yes I am lucky to have that luxury) I can almost guarantee you that at one time or another in that bucks young life he has walked by me in the tree. Here is the rub...for at least two years I have not seen this guy even though I have spent a considerable amount of time pursuing him and his relatives and have certainly seen evidence that he existed. Though he may indeed have been the biggest buck cruising this piece of real estate there are other good bucks also, I have the sheds to prove that. However, try as I may with the exception of sighting one buck, I have got not even a whiff of any of them in the last two years. While one could interpret this as an incrimination of my hunting skills (you wouldn't get an arguement from me ), I have done nothing radically different than I did in scoring on a number of book bucks in the past.
), I have done nothing radically different than I did in scoring on a number of book bucks in the past.
We could all sit and tell 100 stories about things we've seen and heard that seemingly support our opinions........after all they are what helped shape those opinions. In the end they are just single cases in a ever evolving and dynamic world of hunting. My dad just got out of his truck with his brother and took a walk in the woods one day while talking and drinking coffee. A nice 6 pt walked out in front of him and he killed it........we have been hunting there ever since. Nice story and we still laugh about it because he killed the deer and his brother was left holding his coffee cup LOL. It doen't mean that it's a good idea to walk through the woods talking and drinking coffee as a way to find deer.
Not taking away from your story at all because it was a good one and it's point was well taken.
I just don't put too much stock in single case studies. That buck could have gotten chased to your land from anywhere seeing how it's gun season. You really have no idea how far he was away from home when they killed him.
I really think the evolution of game cams will allow people to really start to understand more about when and where deer move. It will also be interesting to see how many never even see a deer that is constantly mugging his film during the night.
Just think how close you may have been to that bruiser at times [
] He probably saw you a few times.......even if you never saw him.The deer I killed this year was sneaking out of dodge.....he wasn't running but he wasn't sticking around for chit chat either that's for sure. About 10-15 minutes after I killed him some hunters appeared with no report of seeing a deer of any kind. Can't say for sure if he was avoiding them or if he got busted by me coming through the goldenrod but if he was avoiding them they never would have even known about it.
Have you seen that deer yet?? Do you know the guys that killed it??
12-18-2003, 07:37 AM
#68
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Heaven IA USA
Posts: 2,597
RE: Passing up BUCKS.... sometimes, i wonder what the POINT IS
Atlas, Unfortunately I didn't get to see the deer in the flesh. The day he was killed I got a phone call to come see him but I couldn't get there in time. Since I have seen pictures of him.
I know a few of the people in the group that got him but I don't know the guy personallly that shot him.
I do know where the buck came out of because the land owner saw him shortly before this group got him.
I would agree with your assessment of single case studies. There is too much evidence however that shows there are other big bucks that are not being seen. They are definitely there, I am just getting the slip. [>:]
I know a few of the people in the group that got him but I don't know the guy personallly that shot him.
I do know where the buck came out of because the land owner saw him shortly before this group got him.
I would agree with your assessment of single case studies. There is too much evidence however that shows there are other big bucks that are not being seen. They are definitely there, I am just getting the slip. [>:]