When does a Kill become a Pickup?
02-01-2002, 12:17 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: East Yapank NY USA
Posts: 3,457
When does a Kill become a Pickup?
It seems that almost everyone here considers the Zaft buck a pickup and I am wondering at what point did it become a pickup.
I have heard four main reasons:
1. He could not recover the meat (due to coyotes)
2. The farmer, not him found the deer
3. It was found the next day
4. He could not verify it was his
I know I am in the minority but I consider it a kill, a kill under the worst of circumstances but still a kill, and because of the caliber of the deer everyone calls it a pickup.
So let me start with a scenario for each of the four reasons that I think would be a kill.
1. Deer shot at dusk, by the time you get out of your stand it is dark, unsure of the shot you decide to comeback at first light (o.k. so far) you find your deer 50 yds. from your stand ripped apart by yotes. You cannot recover the meat. Is it a pickup or a kill? I say chalk one up to the not friendly hunting gods and it is a kill.
2. You have been tracking a deer for 8 hours and run across another hunter / farmer / jogger who after listening to your frustrations tells you he found a dead deer 400 yds the other way. You find he deer with your arrow in it. Odds are you would of never found that deer. Was it your lucky day to claim your trophy or do you now drag back your “pickup” and display it with the rest of your road kills. I say you did not find it and you are lucky, very lucky so chalk one up to the friendly hunting gods and drag home your trophy.
3. Many deer are found the next day, in cold weather you could find a deer days later and the meat would be good. So what’s the cut off ?
4. Zaft could not verify it was his deer because? He could not verify an arrow wound, His blood trail did not lead to his deer. Very often you do not see the arrow hit the deer. You can only confirm the deer was hit with an arrow. Only with a team of forensic scientists and DNA tests to compare the blood on your arrow to the found deer’s blood can you be 100% certain.
Many deer are found after loosing the blood trail and searching. Are all these kills a pickups?
I know I am new hear but I can’t help picturing one of the long time respected posters telling of a big buck he had shot with the same exact scenario as Zaft’s. With the responses from you guys as “ I give you credit for looking for him for two days, many guys would of given up” or “ Nice buck, be sure to send that farmer a fruit basket or put him in your will” or “ Those Darn Yotes I can’t believe they ruined your deer, call DEC and see if they will give you a new tag”
Anyway, there you have it, Lay it on me
<img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>
I have heard four main reasons:
1. He could not recover the meat (due to coyotes)
2. The farmer, not him found the deer
3. It was found the next day
4. He could not verify it was his
I know I am in the minority but I consider it a kill, a kill under the worst of circumstances but still a kill, and because of the caliber of the deer everyone calls it a pickup.
So let me start with a scenario for each of the four reasons that I think would be a kill.
1. Deer shot at dusk, by the time you get out of your stand it is dark, unsure of the shot you decide to comeback at first light (o.k. so far) you find your deer 50 yds. from your stand ripped apart by yotes. You cannot recover the meat. Is it a pickup or a kill? I say chalk one up to the not friendly hunting gods and it is a kill.
2. You have been tracking a deer for 8 hours and run across another hunter / farmer / jogger who after listening to your frustrations tells you he found a dead deer 400 yds the other way. You find he deer with your arrow in it. Odds are you would of never found that deer. Was it your lucky day to claim your trophy or do you now drag back your “pickup” and display it with the rest of your road kills. I say you did not find it and you are lucky, very lucky so chalk one up to the friendly hunting gods and drag home your trophy.
3. Many deer are found the next day, in cold weather you could find a deer days later and the meat would be good. So what’s the cut off ?
4. Zaft could not verify it was his deer because? He could not verify an arrow wound, His blood trail did not lead to his deer. Very often you do not see the arrow hit the deer. You can only confirm the deer was hit with an arrow. Only with a team of forensic scientists and DNA tests to compare the blood on your arrow to the found deer’s blood can you be 100% certain.
Many deer are found after loosing the blood trail and searching. Are all these kills a pickups?
I know I am new hear but I can’t help picturing one of the long time respected posters telling of a big buck he had shot with the same exact scenario as Zaft’s. With the responses from you guys as “ I give you credit for looking for him for two days, many guys would of given up” or “ Nice buck, be sure to send that farmer a fruit basket or put him in your will” or “ Those Darn Yotes I can’t believe they ruined your deer, call DEC and see if they will give you a new tag”
Anyway, there you have it, Lay it on me
<img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>
02-01-2002, 12:36 PM
#2
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 7,571
RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
Rack attack,
Yes, I have shot deer in the evening and have left then overnight, I have even shot deer in the late morning and left them overnight. And if a person has found my deer and told me where to find him I would be greatfull. Now, I have never abandoned the hunt in my opinion, I have just given the deer enough time to expire without presurring him.
Is this the same thing that happened with Zaft? I don't think so.
Yes, I have shot deer in the evening and have left then overnight, I have even shot deer in the late morning and left them overnight. And if a person has found my deer and told me where to find him I would be greatfull. Now, I have never abandoned the hunt in my opinion, I have just given the deer enough time to expire without presurring him.
Is this the same thing that happened with Zaft? I don't think so.
02-01-2002, 12:49 PM
#3
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: ......
Posts: 3,643
RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
1. You played the chances and waited and were unluck that the coyotes found it. Judgement call there, coyotes aren't anyones fault.
2. You are 8 hours into the tracking job -0 meaning you had a bad hit. You are 400 yards from the deer, meaning it traveled a long way around or you're a poor tracker. You still yet recover the deer, meat is good, and call it very very lucky someone else found it for you, because it sure sounds like you wouldn't have. Is it a true kill and recover ? Not really, no.
3. Maybe actually tracking/trailing the animal and finding it ??
4. I never doubted it was the same deer, I think few people do.
Zaft took a poor shot on a huge whitetail, hit it far back and high, had a poor blood trail and no blood trail after a little ways and looked for it 3 seperate times. He was smart leaving a poorly hit deer overnight, no one doubts that. I think the key is, how far from where he shot the deer to the farmers field ? No one says ... why ? I bet you its 1/2 mile or maybe even a full mile from the site where the shot was taken, thats why. And that there indicates a poor hit, a deer that would never have been retrieved and a pickup IMO. That other big deer in the same North American Whitetail issue - it too was a pickup, and had a very similar scenario to Zaft, except it took him 2 months to find the deer.
Another big question, and what I feel happened, is that the deer was weakened, laid down in that field after going a half mile, maybe more, and he was found and brought down by coyotes. Also, I killed a 200 pound, 8 pointer in Kansas in 2000 and the shot was at dusk. Not wanting to push the deer on an uncertain shot at night, I waited until morning. Wasn't neccessary, as the animal only went about 150 yards. Coyotes had eaten 1/4 of the meat, starting with guts and backstrap and ham. They never touched the front end or the cape. I recovered the meat that I could and consider it a kill. I tracked the animal, my hit was good, the coyotes were unfortunate but I'd make the same decision again.
2. You are 8 hours into the tracking job -0 meaning you had a bad hit. You are 400 yards from the deer, meaning it traveled a long way around or you're a poor tracker. You still yet recover the deer, meat is good, and call it very very lucky someone else found it for you, because it sure sounds like you wouldn't have. Is it a true kill and recover ? Not really, no.
3. Maybe actually tracking/trailing the animal and finding it ??
4. I never doubted it was the same deer, I think few people do.
Zaft took a poor shot on a huge whitetail, hit it far back and high, had a poor blood trail and no blood trail after a little ways and looked for it 3 seperate times. He was smart leaving a poorly hit deer overnight, no one doubts that. I think the key is, how far from where he shot the deer to the farmers field ? No one says ... why ? I bet you its 1/2 mile or maybe even a full mile from the site where the shot was taken, thats why. And that there indicates a poor hit, a deer that would never have been retrieved and a pickup IMO. That other big deer in the same North American Whitetail issue - it too was a pickup, and had a very similar scenario to Zaft, except it took him 2 months to find the deer.
Another big question, and what I feel happened, is that the deer was weakened, laid down in that field after going a half mile, maybe more, and he was found and brought down by coyotes. Also, I killed a 200 pound, 8 pointer in Kansas in 2000 and the shot was at dusk. Not wanting to push the deer on an uncertain shot at night, I waited until morning. Wasn't neccessary, as the animal only went about 150 yards. Coyotes had eaten 1/4 of the meat, starting with guts and backstrap and ham. They never touched the front end or the cape. I recovered the meat that I could and consider it a kill. I tracked the animal, my hit was good, the coyotes were unfortunate but I'd make the same decision again.
02-01-2002, 12:54 PM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 1,086
RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
If the deer dies of wounds inflicted by your shot within a reasonable time, it is a kill, no matter if you call Miss Cleo to find the deer. By reasonable time I mean 12 hours or so. Not several days or a week later from infection.
12 years ago I shot a buck that was found, but too late and was rotting. I was within feet of him crawling around on my hands and knees without seeing him. I consider him one of my bow kills. I didn't want another deer that year I wanted him, whether I found him in time to butcher or not. I swore to myself then and there that if the same situation arose, I would recover it in time.
12 years ago I shot a buck that was found, but too late and was rotting. I was within feet of him crawling around on my hands and knees without seeing him. I consider him one of my bow kills. I didn't want another deer that year I wanted him, whether I found him in time to butcher or not. I swore to myself then and there that if the same situation arose, I would recover it in time.
02-01-2002, 02:30 PM
#6
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: East Yapank NY USA
Posts: 3,457
RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
I can understand everyone’s thoughts about this great buck, and think the situation should be scrutinized.
Stealthy, I agree that a lot of this is a judgment call and there is no defined line as to what is a kill or pickup. We simply disagree on no.2 and that’s fine.
Maybe that deer was found a mile away maybe it wasn't. But if it was just a couple hundred yds away does that change the situation?
Maybe Zafts shot was good enough to kill that buck in a reasonable time and distance and the coyotes pushed him out of his deathbed and forced a tough almost impossible recovery.
Even good ethical and dedicated bow hunters make bad hits and can loose a trail. I don't think Zaft gave up yet and started hunting again, I think this is a very important point. If he had given up on the trail and began hunting and it was found I might be on your side of the fence.
I just know if it was me I would consider that buck mine, that farmer would be in my will, and that rack would be on my wall.
Stealthy, I agree that a lot of this is a judgment call and there is no defined line as to what is a kill or pickup. We simply disagree on no.2 and that’s fine.
Maybe that deer was found a mile away maybe it wasn't. But if it was just a couple hundred yds away does that change the situation?
Maybe Zafts shot was good enough to kill that buck in a reasonable time and distance and the coyotes pushed him out of his deathbed and forced a tough almost impossible recovery.
Even good ethical and dedicated bow hunters make bad hits and can loose a trail. I don't think Zaft gave up yet and started hunting again, I think this is a very important point. If he had given up on the trail and began hunting and it was found I might be on your side of the fence.
I just know if it was me I would consider that buck mine, that farmer would be in my will, and that rack would be on my wall.
02-01-2002, 02:58 PM
#7
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 259
RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Maybe that deer was found a mile away maybe it wasn't. But if it was just a couple hundred yds away does that change the situation?
Maybe Zafts shot was good enough to kill that buck in a reasonable time and distance and the coyotes pushed him out of his deathbed and forced a tough almost impossible recovery.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Rack-attack - I tend to agree with Stealthycat. There are way too many unknowns about how the death of the "Zaft" buck occured to confirm it as a P&Y World Record. Given the circumstances of the recovery there is no way to confirm that Zaft's arrow wound was fatal. Maybe the coyotes did kill a weakened buck that might have otherwise recovered from a very poor hit. Deer frequently survive marginal hits from sharp broadheads.
I will also agree with others that if I were Zaft and I knew that this was the buck I had hit that I would claim it as my own. I am not disputing that it is his deer.
Just because he was able to tag it and claim it as his own does not mean that P&Y will accept the buck as meeting their entry guidelines. P&Y as an organization is concerned about more aspects of bowhunting than admitting every big buck to their record book. If that were the case they would have accepted Mike Beatty's huge nontypical as the new world record.
Maybe Zafts shot was good enough to kill that buck in a reasonable time and distance and the coyotes pushed him out of his deathbed and forced a tough almost impossible recovery.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Rack-attack - I tend to agree with Stealthycat. There are way too many unknowns about how the death of the "Zaft" buck occured to confirm it as a P&Y World Record. Given the circumstances of the recovery there is no way to confirm that Zaft's arrow wound was fatal. Maybe the coyotes did kill a weakened buck that might have otherwise recovered from a very poor hit. Deer frequently survive marginal hits from sharp broadheads.
I will also agree with others that if I were Zaft and I knew that this was the buck I had hit that I would claim it as my own. I am not disputing that it is his deer.
Just because he was able to tag it and claim it as his own does not mean that P&Y will accept the buck as meeting their entry guidelines. P&Y as an organization is concerned about more aspects of bowhunting than admitting every big buck to their record book. If that were the case they would have accepted Mike Beatty's huge nontypical as the new world record.
02-02-2002, 08:41 AM
#9
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blossvale, New York
Posts: 21,199
RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
Every deer in the world looks bigger on the hoof than he does on the ground. Zaft said he shot at a big buck. How many big bucks are there in that country...... A LOT more than there are in many areas. A 160 class buck in a hurried situation looks lie 250. No, we're not sure that buck is his. We're not sure it's the same one. We can't even find an arrow hole. You must have a chain of evidence leading to that deer.... even if it's a lucky find.... such as an arrow wound or something. But to find a destroyed carcass is absurd. I would think fair chase should have an asterisk that states and recovered in edible condition. Even in the pictures in the field they say he's using a different cape to display the horns. For all I know the darn thing was rotten when he found it.
02-02-2002, 10:47 AM
#10
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Calvert co. Md USA
Posts: 540
RE: When does a Kill become a Pickup?
If I heard that a farmer close to me found a huge dead buck what is to stop me from saying Oh yea I shot that buck yesterday and its mine and I want to enter it in the record book. How does anyone know that Zafts shot even killed the buck? Maybe it was only wounded and the coyotes killed it. In my opinion it is a pickup not a hunter kill.