Buck Magnet

I know that some deer have SOME velvet, but his deer had TONS, and I mean TONS of velvet, it appeared that the buck never even had a chance to rub trees. It looks like it just shriveled up right on his antlers.

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^)

stealthycat

Rack-attack - Where are you ?

Buck Magnet - A lot of good questions there. Zafts web site is all about Zaft, and little about the deer. A big buck dying in the middle of a big, open field, a big buck that KNOWS how many coyotes are in the area and how to avoid them - the only logical reason is to think the buck was weakened but not dead, and thats the opportunity the coyotes needed to take him down in the field. That makes the most sense to me.

Rack-attack

I am here Stealthy.

Buck-Magnet , As far as Zaft not being 100% sure about if the deer was his, this is a situation that occurs very often in bow hunting. I have had gaps in blood trails, and lost blood trails and found my buck. Are you saying that this is a pickup because I could not, without 100% certainty, prove that it was the buck I shot. No one has ever questioned the validity of these type of kills when on average deer and they happen all the time. Another point is that Zaft had described the rack and its velvet before the farmer found it.
It didn’t lay in a field to die it was pushed there by Coyotes, maybe even dragged there. Oh, and Rompola has a long history of poaching big bucks.

I was under the impression he shot the buck in October so the amount of velvet may be odd but I don’t think impossible. If you are implying that he shot the buck off season then why didn’t he pull the velvet off? Why leave it on for the hole world to question?

Did Zaft take an iffy shot? Yes. But I have also and so have most of you. Does that preclude that any deer recovered from a low percentage shot is automatically a pickup? No

Am I 100% sure that the buck he found is the one he shot? No. But looking back over 20 yrs of bow hunting I can think of some of my own recoveries and recoveries of friends that could under scrutiny also be questioned and if pressed, could not prove 100% that the buck found was without a doubt the buck shot.

Did Zaft do everything he could to recover that deer? I don’t know. With my luck I would of shot that buck the day before I had to be at work, we just don’t know. If I had to go to work you can sure bet my old man would be out there for me. I don’t know if I could of convinced a friend to loose a days pay to look for a deer, so I can’t take away his deer because of that.

Is it possible that Zaft is in cohorts with the farmer and contrived this story after they found the dead buck and that’s why he did not get any help. I guess it is possible. But if I am going to be that cynical than I will except no kill unless it comes with a video of the shot and DNA proof that the blood on the arrow matches the deer that is found.

Zaft could be a complete lying poacher. Or he could be a regular guy like you and me that made a questionable decision in an adrenaline rushed once in a lifetime moment that triggered a snowball effect of bad luck and unanswerable questions to an honest, non-perfect kill of a world class buck.

Zaft may never be able to prove 100% that it was his buck and it was a kill, but until someone proves to me 100% that it wasn’t than I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

TxCowboy

Rack-attack, I agree with you 100% on this thread. You have made some great points.

I find it sad that a guy goes out and shoots a world class buck and has trouble finding it, and now half of this msg board wants to call the deer a pick-up and give the guy no credit. I know good and well that almost every single person on this board would claim that deer as their kill if they knew they had put an arrow in it. To say that you wouldn't claim it or you'd just turn it in as a pick up is a dang lie. I think that 99% of the reason behind these feelings is jealously.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; I guess that I am one of the few people out there who actually believes there are still some good honest folks out there and I tend to believe folks are telling the truth until I have good reason to think otherwise. Maybe I'm the one who's wrong? Maybe this guy is lying and he never shot an arrow at this deer? I guess we'll never know, I guess I'm the fool for trusting and believing ayone anymore? I am happy for this Zaft guy for being able to take this big buck. Call it a pick-up or whatever you want, I call it an awesome deer and one lucky hunter.

Buck Magnet

Rack-Attack, you have some very good points.

BUT, did your deer still have YOUR ARROW and YOUR BROADHEAD in it? Zaft couldn't show that as proof. That is one thing that I found odd. From what I have heard, he couldn't come up with the arrow or broadhead, but, wouldn't the broadhead and broken part of the be in the deer meat? I am pretty sure that the coyotes wouldn't eat a razor sharp broadhead. I never said that this deer was definetly shot out of season, it just seems strange that there is that much velvet on the antlers. When you think of archery hunting, you thinking of getting ready, waiting for a deer, standing up and waiting for the perfect shot, shooting, looking for the deer, and FINDING IT by yourself, or with your hunting partners help. That is what I think archery hunting is, the FACT is that Zaft didn't find this deer. Here is something that HE PERSONALLY said. He said that "if he wouldn't have heard about the deer from the farmer, he would NEVER have found that buck". So, why should he get the credit for this buck? He was INCREDIBLY lucky. Thats it. PURE LUCK. Zaft's website is another joke. He is selling mounts of his buck. I have had a post on here about that before. He is in it for the money, thats all. His web site makes him out to look like the best archer on this earth. They show him in his "full draw pose". It is a joke. This guy is a joke, him "recovering" the deer is a joke, and him having the possible world record is a joke.

TxCowboy, this is the only buck that I have EVER questioned and that is simply because there is barely any proof that his arrow was what killed this deer. Here is a little situation for you, in the middle of archery season you shoot a HUGE buck, maybe 180 class typical, you loose track of him, you search for a couple days and can't find him. Well, about a week or so later you find it laying on the side of the road. Do you pick it up and claim it? It is the same situation.

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^)

stealthycat

" It didn’t lay in a field to die it was pushed there by Coyotes, maybe even dragged there .. "

Thats speculation, there is no proof of that.

" Did Zaft take an iffy shot? Yes. But I have also and so have most of you. Does that preclude that any deer recovered from a low percentage shot is automatically a pickup? No"

Not automatically, no, but it does provide evidence that the shot did not kill that buck within 100 or even 200 yards of where it was shot - like a lung shot or even a liver shot deer would have expired. This deer was hit poorly and went farther than Zaft could find it in 3 seperate times looking for it, am I right ?

" Zaft could be a complete lying poacher. Or he could be a regular guy like you and me that made a questionable decision in an adrenaline rushed once in a lifetime moment that triggered a snowball effect of bad luck and unanswerable questions to an honest, non-perfect kill of a world class buck.

Zaft may never be able to prove 100% that it was his buck and it was a kill, but until someone proves to me 100% that it wasn’t than I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

First off, Zaft is a professional target shooter, hes killed several P&Y deer, he KNOWS big deer, knew what this deers potential was and took a poor shot - not an average hunter, is he ?

TxCowboy - My question to you - how did he recover this animal ? I mean, he didn't find it at the end of a blood trail, did he ? heck, he didn't even find the carcass with the help of magpies and crows - someone else found it and was gracious enough to give the head to him.

I believe its Zaft's deer. I would have it wounted if I were him. Should it replace Mel Johnsons world record, a deer that was shot well and recovered by the hunter who shot it ? I don't think it should, because Zaft never recovered this deer.

Buck Magnet - If I aint mistaken, Zafts arrow passed through. I think its odd that coyotes ate almost the whole deer that night - I've never heard of this. Coyotes start at the hams/guts and work forward, right ? Unless there were 30 coyotes on him, how would they eat the whole carcass in just a few hours ??

Rack-attack

Buck-Magnet, Let me start of by saying I completely understand the controversy and doubt surrounding this buck. If it was revealed tomorrow that the buck was poached or found and this whole thing is a hoax I would not be surprised, I would not put that past a lot of people, taking in consideration the money at stake. With the information given though, at this point I consider it a kill.

You are right that he would of never found the deer without the farmer and it was pure luck. I think our main disagreement stems from my opening question for this topic: When does a kill become a pickup? It seems no one has a definitive answer for that and I suppose it is open to interpretation as their are many variables.

It seems you feel that this “luck” factor is only a determination of ones effort and should be held in check accordingly. I feel all successful hunters are lucky, but that luck is usually a direct byproduct of hard work dedication and love for the sport and for the most part is dealt to us in a proportional ratio. But there are times when one hunters luck far exceeds the luck of another and I cannot fault him for that.. You are right in the fact that Zaft exceeded his fair ratio of luck on that day when the farmer found his deer but I feel he used an even more ridiculous amount of luck just to see a buck that caliber let alone get a shot at it. I cannot take that kill away from him just because he was incredibly lucky, Twice.

Those deer I found did not have an arrow in them and that is my point. There are many pass through fatal hits on deer that do not leave good blood trails or almost no blood trails at all. Many, many deer are found after a trail has been lost and the hunter is spot searching likely areas the deer may have gone. Ther is no arrow, no direct uninterrupted blood trail leading back the shot. Odds are it is the SAME deer but put these kills under scrutiny and there is a chance that you found someone else’s deer.

I lost a real good buck because of bad a decision or bad luck or both and I took the next day off and half a day off the next day, my dad even took a day off. We never found that brute but if someone else happened to find him on that second day and lead me to it I would have been the happiest and luckiest hunter in the world. I wouldn’t of even considered if it was a kill or not, that would have been my buck, period.

We as bowhunters get bad luck dealt to us regularly and are stoic in its presence. I don’t discount the factor luck plays in our sport and I will not penalize those who have more of it than me.

If lady luck finally gives me a whole countries worth of luck all on one chilly November mourning, I will accept it with a smile and with my head held high, after all I deserved it.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

azhunter

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Just because he was able to tag it and claim it as his own does not mean that P&Y will accept the buck as meeting their entry guidelines.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
It wont get in the P&Y regardless to the situation. His bow had a letoff of more then 65%.
http://buckmasters.com/Buckmasters_L...eattybuck.html

Edited by - azhunter on 02/05/2002 19:19:25

Everson

We don't know answers to a lot of these questions, I got the impresion he looked the wrong direction and the deer wasn't that far away. I consider it a kill, I,ve read about many deer that were alot more iffy then this one.

Antler Eater

Is it a kill? Is it a pickup? Everyone has a right to their own opinion. Some of the questions we can answer, some we can't.

Can a group of coyotes consume an entire deer overnight?...Absolutely! check out these photos


These photos were taken in 1995 and it was the third time I have seen coyotes consume an entire deer in a matter of hours. By the way the deer in the photo was consumed overnight.

I can't fault young Zaft for the coyote issue. Any animal that is left out overnight runs the risk of being consumed in certain regions of the country. Did the coyotes kill the deer? My guess would be no, coyotes usually would not attack a buck of this size unless unusually hungry. Being that there was no snow on the ground and in early fall (Oct.8th) they shouldn't have been driven to risk injury by tangling with a buck of this stature when they could find an easier meal elsewhere. On the other hand there are no absolutes in nature, but it is unlikely that they killed the buck.

Is this the same buck he shot at? I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. It would seem absurd that one would not recognize the velvet tangle around the antlers in identifying the animal. One way we would know for sure is if the DNA (has it really come to this? <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>) on the arrow that passed through the buck was matched with the animal itself.

As to recovery time; It is still unclear to me the time line between the shot and recovery. The article in Whitetail is rather vague as to when the buck was recovered. From one persective it reads like it was found the next day, but could be interpreted as two days later. I do not know the facts, on the time line, perhaps someone can fill us in.

There is a question on the affidavite for Pope & Young asking if the deer was recovered in a reasonable amount of time after the shot. It will be interesting to see how that will be interpreted.

Also it will be interesting to see if the panel scorers with agree with Mr Paplawski's assessment that the G-2 and G-3 stem from the main beam and not from one another. I have to believe they will be in agreement, but if for some strange reason they don't it will knock the score down signicantly and out of the number one spot.

Mr. Zaft was incredibly lucky on at least two counts and I won't hold that against him. Even the best bow hunters in the world need some luck sometimes to make things come together. Lady luck smiled in his direction and it appears at this time he will be haled as the bowhunter that killed the largest typical whitetail ever taken with a bow. I don't really have a problem with that I guess. What I do find distasteful is his website and the hero status it seems to me that he has bestowed upon himself. His site gives me the feeling that our sport is all about money. Perhaps I shouldn't be so adamant about it but we see the money trend flooding through our gates and it doesn't appear to be changing.