bluebird2

Have you ever considered comaparing the stressof being hunted for 4 moths compared to stree of less than one month of peak breeding competition?

Have you considered what percentage of the oveer wintering herd is effected by breeding stress, since around only 20% of our 2.5+ buck survive hunting season?

Have you considered what effect breeding stress would have on the health of the herd based on breeding rates, productivity, recruitment and the length of the breeding window?

Do you have any data that shows reducing the herd and imolementing ARs did anything to improve herd health in PA?

Have you ever seen a mature buck that died from breeding stress in PA?

Merry Christmas

J Pike

glew First of all it is impossible to have a buck to doe ratio of 1:10 heck its even impossible to have a buck to doe ratio of 1:3!! 2nd!! Even though we have a natural breeding ecology we still have a 2nd and 3rd rut because female fawns come into their first estrous cycle once they reach 76-80lbs and that usually happens from Dec thru Jan.!! Female fawns is the main reason that you have a 2nd and a 3rd rut not because you have and out of whack buck to doe ratio!! I have studied my buck population which has had a natural bredding ecology for the last 5 years, have you ever spent one day studying a herd that had a natural breeding ecology? And I can tell you that with out a shadow of a doubt that what you are claiming is 100% wrong. In mature bucks breeding behavior and does not get surpressed by the presence of bucks in older age classes, infact the amount of breeding behavior increases.
I see it every time I use my decoy, every time a in mature buck encounters bobble head (my decoys name) their ears go strait back, their hair stands up on end and most of them will circle behind bobble walking stiff legged and proceed to knock bobble down, now the amazing thing is that bobble has 150 inch antlers.
Also during the rut we see just as many in mature bucks making rubs, scrapes, fighting, searching and chasing doe's as we do mature bucks, infact its not un common to have 4 or 5 bucks of every age class dogging the same doe right behind each other.
Here are numerous pics of in mature bucks fighting and displaying rutting behavior (I have many more pics just dont dont have time to locate them all in my PC. today)Pike

glew22

No, it's thought provoking though. It would be hard to come up with an experimental setup to test that. My gut reaction is that being hunted has far less stress than the rut for a few reasons. #1- A lot of bucks (mainly those in older age classes) go nocturnal when the hunting pressure heats up. #2- How many of these bucks are actually getting hunted hard for four months? #3- The rut is very stressul, I had Whitey on film at 2 different camera locations that are over .5 miles apart (the way the bird flies). He was at the first camera at 10:52, the 2nd at 11:33, and back at the 1st at 12:33. In just over an hour and a half he put on AT LEAST 1.12 miles. That is assuming he too a directly straight route and stood still for the rest of the interim. Obviously, neither of these two things happened. He probably traveled about 2 miles in under 2 hours, and that was on Nov 24th.

I'm not sure what you're asking here. I'm not sure if its fail to draw a distinction with the over wintering herd, because all surviving deer would have been exposed to breeding stress during the rut. I would say that the population dynamics present during the rut would supercede over wintering in the examples I provided.

Breeding rates, recruitment, and length of the breeding window are all population characteristics dependent upon the sex ratio and and other factors (ex: deer density, habitat quality). I am suggesting that breeding strees fluctuates and the extent of breeding stress is dependent upon the population characteristics you mentioned.

Yes, I've witnessed the buck age structure in my area improve steadily for the last 5 years. By increasing the antlerless harvest over that time period it appears the intensity of the 2nd rut has declined.

Not personally, but it has happened. I believe Charlie Alsheimer used cameras and videos to document a case of this. He watched a dominant buck die after the breeding season, and determined that the buck did not die from old age, or any obvious wound.

glew22

No I have not had the privlege of studying a herd with a natural breeding ecology, mine is a work in progress. I am not sure what you are referring to as 100% wrong...however, this statement is a fact, the presence of a mature buck will suppress the testosterone output of immature bucks. Will it eliminate all testoterone, of course not. Will it eliminate breeding participation, of course not. And you're probably right, their breeding behavior may increase. But that does not automatically mean that stress increases as well. You may disagree, but now we're just hypothesizing as to which breeding activity causes more stress, and reduces antler growth, these factors are hard to prove or disprove scientifically. Is it a short intense rut in a natural population that lasts for 2 weeks? Or is it a long drawn out rut in a overpopulated area with a skewed buck to do ratio and with a limited number of bucks absorbing the stress. I would argue for the latter. In a natural population with a short rut bucks are going to lose 20% of their body weight. If that rut is extended because there are too many does and a limited number of bucks, it will take an even larger toll on their physical condition, because they're asked to do more: breed more doe, and breed those doe over a longer period of time.

I would disagree that these are mature bucks, I do not see any over 3.5. I mean that in a respectful way, I appreciate your input. Just saw that you added 11-19, 22:16, he looks 4.5.

J Pike

glew re read my post I said here are pics of in mature bucks, (none of them are older than 2.5 years of age!!) Doesnt look like the bucks in my pics are showing any decrease in rutting behavior does it? Like I said you dont know what you are talking about and just posting what you read in a mag.( not trying to be rude etc.) By the way were did you ever here that a buck to doe ratio of 1:10 was possible??? Because it is impossible to have a buck to doe ratio of more than 1:3! Pike

glew22

I didn't know that by "in mature" you meant "immature". You're assuming a lot of things here, and you may not be trying to be rude, but when you make false claims (that I don't know what I'm talking about, and I just read it in a mag.) attempting to undermine my credibility and belittle my knowledge I do take offense (not that big of a deal though, I'll get over it). I never read anything I've claimed in this post from a magaizine. Instead, I've heard it first hand from multiple nationally recognized managers, researchers, biologists, and authors. As I mentioned, the 10 to 1 ratio I was claiming was a hypothetical situation. As far as it being impossible to reach a ratio greater than 3 to 1, what ratio are we talking about, adult sex ratio, or antlered to antlerless ratio?

One distiction I have failed to clarify is that of rutting behavior, and breeding related stress. While they're not mutually exclusive, that are distinct entities. There are a LOT of different rutting behaviors (fighting, breeding, chasing, etc.). To think that all of these activies contribute the same amount of breeding stress as the other is logically flawed. I feel it is possible to increase certain rutting behaviors, while still decreasing the overall impact of breeding related stress.

I will elaborate on the third example in my original post to clarify my stance. Again, keep in mind this is hypotheical; I simply want to demonstrate my views conceptually. My buddy witnessed 44 deer in one field one night: 43 doe, 1 yearling buck. Because all does will not get bred, this herd is in for a lengthy, drawn out rut. Keep in mind that the lone buck is absorbing all the stress (breeding, chasing, etc.) from that extended rut. Now lets say we took the same herd, instead this time theres 43 doe and 43 bucks. In this scenario we expect to see a decrease in the lenth of the rut because there is an increased likelihood all does will be bred on their 1st cycle. We would obviously expect to see more fighting, because there is increased competition for breeding rights. We also expect to see a decrease in the number of does bread by an individual buck (there's more bucks around to breed, so each has to breed a lesser number of does).

What I'm getting at is that your hypothesizing as to which breeding activities have a greater impact of their level of stress. You say fighting, I say length of rut. It's impossible to pull out what factors have what effect. IMO I would take the herd with the even buck/doe ratio, because the stress will get absorbed by a larger number of bucks. Each buck has to breed a lesser number of does, and will be active for a much shorted period of time. A rigorous 2 week rut allows them to get back to nutrition and recoupng their bodies faster than a 1.5 month rut that prevents them from physically recovering for at least another month.

bluebird2

The fact is that less than 15% of the deer that survive hunting season are bucks that may have been affected by breeding stress and the vast majority of those buck are 1.5 buck that would be subject to little if any breeding stress. Therefore, in PA breeding stress has no negative effect on the health of the herd.

If breeding stress had a negative effect on those measures of herd health, they would have improved when PA implemented HR and ARs. Instead productivity and recruitment decreased and the breeding window remained the same, and that totally discredits your theories on breeding stress.

That does not prove herd health has improved and you can't provide any data that shows that it did.
So wouldn't that indicate that breeding stress on mature buck increases when you have more mature buck?

glew22

Alright bluebird. Since you love disagreeing with me, why don't you provide me with your explanation concerning the three examples I provided. I put forth my theory, you pulled out bits and pieces to argue definitions, while claiming that some of the FACTS I put forth are negligible.

Now you tell me, why did the dominant buck I've watched for three years have such lower antler growth rate than his subordinate counterpart. Also, why did the same scenario play out at MSU under Ozaga? Please enlighten me.

bluebird2

Maybe it was an inferior buck that was protected by ARs. Kroll's study showed that spikes and Y's are inferior for the rate of antler development.

bawanajim

I think the Bluebirds been hitting the egg nog.