? about 3D shoots
05-12-2003, 07:10 AM
#21
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: ? about 3D shoots
I really hesitate in posting on this thread but I felt the need to share my experience on this issue.
In the beginning......
I shot local 3D shoots strictly for hunting practice and was absolutely horrible at them. It was not uncommon for me to loose or damage a half dozen aluminums each week.
After a time though I became a better shot and a better judge of distance. Subsequently, the number of arrows lost or damaged decreased greatly to the point that I could actually carry less than half a dozen and not worry about losing any of them. During the same time my scores also increased and I learned to " pick a spot" on the target animal instead of just aiming for color and letting loose.
Eventually I hit a plateau and wanted my scores to improve so I turned to equipment that would allow me to shoot steadier and more precisely. This took away from the practicality of my hunting setup but helped my scores again improve over time. At one point I became discouraged if I had more than a few 8s in any round of 10 and nothing was acceptable until I shot a perfect 300 (30 targets with 10 being the highest score on any one target, " x" s were for tie breakers). After getting so close so many times I slowly became frustrated and my scores started to show it. Then, I started dreading to go to the shoots because I just knew that I would never top the score from the week before not to mention ever get to that " perfect score" .
In the end I sold all of my microadjustable, magnifying target equipment and just went back to shooting my regular hunting setup. I do not shoot the same scores but I have found the fun again. Leaving something to chance and allowing a few more variables enter into the equation made the activity much more fun and challenging for me.
Is that to say that this is how everyone should view it? No, it is not. It is just to say that I can understand how folks from both sides of the fence view this issue and can sympathize with both viewpoints. Though not practical it might be a good idea if local 3D shoots were split into two categories and corresponding time slots..... 7 am through 10 am could be strictly for folks with hunting bows that want to practice for hunting situations. 10 am and on could be a mix of hardcore 3D shooters and hunters with the understanding that the focus is on the hardcore enthusiast. That would seem to please both sides of this issue.
In the beginning......
I shot local 3D shoots strictly for hunting practice and was absolutely horrible at them. It was not uncommon for me to loose or damage a half dozen aluminums each week.
After a time though I became a better shot and a better judge of distance. Subsequently, the number of arrows lost or damaged decreased greatly to the point that I could actually carry less than half a dozen and not worry about losing any of them. During the same time my scores also increased and I learned to " pick a spot" on the target animal instead of just aiming for color and letting loose. Eventually I hit a plateau and wanted my scores to improve so I turned to equipment that would allow me to shoot steadier and more precisely. This took away from the practicality of my hunting setup but helped my scores again improve over time. At one point I became discouraged if I had more than a few 8s in any round of 10 and nothing was acceptable until I shot a perfect 300 (30 targets with 10 being the highest score on any one target, " x" s were for tie breakers
). After getting so close so many times I slowly became frustrated and my scores started to show it. Then, I started dreading to go to the shoots because I just knew that I would never top the score from the week before not to mention ever get to that " perfect score" .In the end I sold all of my microadjustable, magnifying target equipment and just went back to shooting my regular hunting setup. I do not shoot the same scores but I have found the fun again. Leaving something to chance and allowing a few more variables enter into the equation made the activity much more fun and challenging for me.
Is that to say that this is how everyone should view it? No, it is not. It is just to say that I can understand how folks from both sides of the fence view this issue and can sympathize with both viewpoints. Though not practical it might be a good idea if local 3D shoots were split into two categories and corresponding time slots..... 7 am through 10 am could be strictly for folks with hunting bows that want to practice for hunting situations. 10 am and on could be a mix of hardcore 3D shooters and hunters with the understanding that the focus is on the hardcore enthusiast. That would seem to please both sides of this issue.
05-12-2003, 07:14 AM
#22
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Burleson TX USA
Posts: 6,455
RE: ? about 3D shoots
Arthur.
I think I have come across those guys
The same goes for Springtown at their club shoots no umbrellas and no bino' s.
In fact they have only 2 stakes compound and recurve/trad.
But back to the question at hand I use a pretty target bow but dont have all the gadgets and gizmos I do have a Spot Hogg Hogg-it sight and 12" stab.
I might as well look like I can shoot well it fools the competition every time
Matt basicly hit the nail on the head it is a competition some treat it seriously and others it is just a fun shoot on a Sunday.
I treat it as a seriously fun shoot
Just take what ever bow you want and have FUN and meet a great group of people and forget about the other group that seems to turn up at every shoot.
At our club we know the recurve/trad guys are fast on the course so we send them out first so us compound users dont hold them up[
]
I think I have come across those guys
The same goes for Springtown at their club shoots no umbrellas and no bino' s.
In fact they have only 2 stakes compound and recurve/trad
.But back to the question at hand I use a pretty target bow but dont have all the gadgets and gizmos I do have a Spot Hogg Hogg-it sight and 12" stab.
I might as well look like I can shoot well
it fools the competition every timeMatt basicly hit the nail on the head it is a competition some treat it seriously and others it is just a fun shoot on a Sunday.
I treat it as a seriously fun shoot
Just take what ever bow you want and have FUN and meet a great group of people and forget about the other group that seems to turn up at every shoot.
At our club we know the recurve/trad guys are fast on the course so we send them out first so us compound users dont hold them up[
]
05-12-2003, 07:38 AM
#23
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: ? about 3D shoots
I know they' re out there, Aussie. If you run into them again, tell ' em I' d sure like to have a heart to heart visit with them. One at a time. Out of sight on the back of the range preferably. And be sure to mention that I called their mommas names.
But yeah, there are still some clubs that have stuck by the old original rules that IBO formed under. Pre-open class. Before a whole boatload of classes for that matter. They cater to the bowhunter type shooters, not the hardcore competitors. That was our club' s focus. Only problem is the open class antics have soured so many people on 3D that you can' t get them to come out any more.
Again, I don' t have anything against competition, but it' s inappropriate for non-compeitive fun shoots. Anyone that can' t lighten up and turn off the competitive drive needs to either find a competitive shoot to go to, or stay the heck HOME. Or some angry mom might be yanking that stabilizer off his bow and looking for a shady spot to stick it in.
But yeah, there are still some clubs that have stuck by the old original rules that IBO formed under. Pre-open class. Before a whole boatload of classes for that matter. They cater to the bowhunter type shooters, not the hardcore competitors. That was our club' s focus. Only problem is the open class antics have soured so many people on 3D that you can' t get them to come out any more.
Again, I don' t have anything against competition, but it' s inappropriate for non-compeitive fun shoots. Anyone that can' t lighten up and turn off the competitive drive needs to either find a competitive shoot to go to, or stay the heck HOME. Or some angry mom might be yanking that stabilizer off his bow and looking for a shady spot to stick it in.
05-12-2003, 07:44 AM
#24
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Jamestown SC USA
Posts: 760
RE: ? about 3D shoots
I' ve been on both sides of this coin as well and both sides make valid points. I' ve shot 3D with both setups and I have to admit, I have fun either way. I love the competition, but I almost always shoot with the same couple of buddies and I know before the first arrow is flung, they are both going to beat me so I don' t feel any pressure at all. I usually kill more deer come fall though.
I guess the ones that irritate me are the target shooters that act as though they are the main reason for the shoot and everybody else is just in their way. These are few and far between, but I have run across them.
Everybody just needs to remember that the shoots are for EVERYBODY. Most 3D shoots would cease to exist without the entry fees from both sides, so it is a classic case of learning to get along under less than ideal circumstances. To push either group out may mean the beginning of the end for the whole shoot. Nobody wins in that situation.
One thing that always helps is to let the faster groups shoot through. If the faster group doesn' t mind a bit more walking, they can skip a target and come back to it, to get around a slower group. This actually saves the most time, but sometimes requires more walking.
At any rate, I love to shoot 3D with ANY bow. I' ve got two young girls right now and hardly ever get to go at all, so you guys that can go count your blessings. It could be worse. You could be sitting home wishing you were there. I' d be willing to shoot a slingshot right now if I could just get to GO.
I usually kill more deer come fall though. I guess the ones that irritate me are the target shooters that act as though they are the main reason for the shoot and everybody else is just in their way. These are few and far between, but I have run across them.
Everybody just needs to remember that the shoots are for EVERYBODY. Most 3D shoots would cease to exist without the entry fees from both sides, so it is a classic case of learning to get along under less than ideal circumstances. To push either group out may mean the beginning of the end for the whole shoot. Nobody wins in that situation.
One thing that always helps is to let the faster groups shoot through. If the faster group doesn' t mind a bit more walking, they can skip a target and come back to it, to get around a slower group. This actually saves the most time, but sometimes requires more walking.
At any rate, I love to shoot 3D with ANY bow. I' ve got two young girls right now and hardly ever get to go at all, so you guys that can go count your blessings. It could be worse. You could be sitting home wishing you were there.
I' d be willing to shoot a slingshot right now if I could just get to GO.
05-12-2003, 07:48 AM
#25
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: centerville pa. USA
Posts: 105
RE: ? about 3D shoots
Hunters, get over yourselves! I am a hunter also but I also am involved with my local club and have been involved with setting up 3-D shoots for the past 7 years.
I have a news flash for all of us - Not everything in archery is geared toward hunting. My wife is an avid archer and she is extremely competitive on the 3-D courses. She has zero interest in hunting. We shoot the paper leagues and the electronic leagues and we shoot a 3-D course every week from the 1st week-end in Jan. to the last week-end in Sept.
We set up a 3-D course for fun, if you want to shoot it for hunting practice that is your perogative but don' t come back griping that certain targets were not realistic hunting situations. They probably were not intended to be. I have hunters tell me that they would not have taken certain shots in a ' hunting' situation, well I would not have walked away from a shot animal without gutting and tagging it in a hunting situation either. Did you happen to notice that the animals are rubber!!??
Do you really think that the only reason to play catch with your kid is for training for ' the big leagues' ? Do you fish just to practice for the " bass Anglers" tournaments? Do you take a Sunday drive just to practice for the ' Indy' ?
Get over it, some things are just for the fun of it.
I have a news flash for all of us - Not everything in archery is geared toward hunting. My wife is an avid archer and she is extremely competitive on the 3-D courses. She has zero interest in hunting. We shoot the paper leagues and the electronic leagues and we shoot a 3-D course every week from the 1st week-end in Jan. to the last week-end in Sept.
We set up a 3-D course for fun, if you want to shoot it for hunting practice that is your perogative but don' t come back griping that certain targets were not realistic hunting situations. They probably were not intended to be. I have hunters tell me that they would not have taken certain shots in a ' hunting' situation, well I would not have walked away from a shot animal without gutting and tagging it in a hunting situation either. Did you happen to notice that the animals are rubber!!??
Do you really think that the only reason to play catch with your kid is for training for ' the big leagues' ? Do you fish just to practice for the " bass Anglers" tournaments? Do you take a Sunday drive just to practice for the ' Indy' ?
Get over it, some things are just for the fun of it.
05-12-2003, 08:56 AM
#26
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Posts: 65
RE: ? about 3D shoots
Sometimes people forget that the whole point is to have fun. I had a dealer argue with me when I wanted to order s Bowtech Samson - " What are you going to do, hunt elephants?" No, I just think it is a fun change of pace to occasionally shoot a bow you really have to work at. Then when I started to sometimes shoot lefty, although I am right eye dominant - well that brought out the critics. When one hunts one should use equipment that suits the person and the task, to be fair to the deer. For everything else who cares what people think? (For the record, I am a terrible shot shooting lefty and I don' t know which wears me out faster shooting a heavy bow, the physical effort in pulling it back or the effort needed to remove arrows from the target.)
05-12-2003, 10:20 AM
#27
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
RE: ? about 3D shoots
Arthur you did find out the hard way that it does take all classes for most clubs to make it.
Arthur as for someone moaning and complaining about noise in the background,if they are doing that then they aren' t that good of a shot to begin with.Heck,I tell the people behind me not to worry about it because when I' m on the line,I can' t hear them anyway.I quess that is part of learning to shoot with kids.As for someone threatening a kid.They needed their asses kicked right there.You have lumped a whole group of shooters into 1 category because of a couple of PUNKS that happen to shoot open equipment.That is called prejudice.There is a whole race of people that have been judged in this manner.It isn' t right either way.
The so called FUN shoots happen to be the only form of practice for the open shooters and they MUST treat it as a serious competition if they are to reach their goals.Ever had a goal?
There is a considerable amount of burn out that happens.I have seen it in all classes.It does happen more with the open shooters.They are more competitive and dump many more hours into it.I would quess that most half way serious shooter shoot as much in 1 year as the average hunter does in 10 years and maybe twice as much as the average 3-d shooter.So yes burn out does happen.Remember though,all most all of those guys were at one time doing it the same way as you and just wanted more from it.
Arthur as for someone moaning and complaining about noise in the background,if they are doing that then they aren' t that good of a shot to begin with.Heck,I tell the people behind me not to worry about it because when I' m on the line,I can' t hear them anyway.I quess that is part of learning to shoot with kids.As for someone threatening a kid.They needed their asses kicked right there.You have lumped a whole group of shooters into 1 category because of a couple of PUNKS that happen to shoot open equipment.That is called prejudice.There is a whole race of people that have been judged in this manner.It isn' t right either way.
The so called FUN shoots happen to be the only form of practice for the open shooters and they MUST treat it as a serious competition if they are to reach their goals.Ever had a goal?
There is a considerable amount of burn out that happens.I have seen it in all classes.It does happen more with the open shooters.They are more competitive and dump many more hours into it.I would quess that most half way serious shooter shoot as much in 1 year as the average hunter does in 10 years and maybe twice as much as the average 3-d shooter.So yes burn out does happen.Remember though,all most all of those guys were at one time doing it the same way as you and just wanted more from it.
05-12-2003, 11:59 AM
#28
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: ? about 3D shoots
TFOX. I resent being told I' m prejudiced. I have issues with the open class on levels you don' t have a clue about.
I have been a club officer, in two different clubs (not at the same time, obviously), for the past 17 years with only one short break. My opinions are based on long term observation of what has been going on, from a club management standpoint, as a tournament competitor and as a tournament director. I can honestly tell you that, around here anyway, it is a very rare individual that competes in open class or NFAA freestyle that will ever stoop to such menial tasks as filling water jugs, running a weedeater or setting out targets for a shoot. They are only slightly more liable to actually attend club meetings and vote on issues important to the club. Considering all the trouble that is caused by the class, the drop in tournament participation because of their shooting habits and often nasty attitudes (I know that as fact) and the lack of support from them, AS A GROUP, they are worse than worthless when it comes down to the bottom line.
You might ask HOW I know why participation fell. I' m a club officer and when you see a trend like that, you investigate. I got on the phone and called former members and asked why they quit shooting. And now I' ve found out about that nasty lie that' s been told about our club and is now floating around. Again participation drops at the hands of open class shooters.
That is not prejudice talking, my friend. That' s sad experience.
Fun shoots. As someone that is actually involved in putting on tournaments for our club, I can tell you exactly what a fun shoot is for. And what it' s NOT for. It' s NOT for high level competition practice while everyone else is out for a day of shooting and socializing.
And yes, I have had a goal or two in my life. Thanks so much for asking.
By the way, since our club has been abandoned by the compound segment of shooters, we' ve done just fine. Tradtitionalists LOVE to shoot our place simply because the compounds aren' t there. Since our club is open to all equipment, it' s not the way I' d like to have things, but that' s the way it is. Since there are no all traditional clubs in our neck of the woods, I think we could do quite well as an all trad club. I believe there may be a vote coming up on that in the not-to-distant future.
I have been a club officer, in two different clubs (not at the same time, obviously), for the past 17 years with only one short break. My opinions are based on long term observation of what has been going on, from a club management standpoint, as a tournament competitor and as a tournament director. I can honestly tell you that, around here anyway, it is a very rare individual that competes in open class or NFAA freestyle that will ever stoop to such menial tasks as filling water jugs, running a weedeater or setting out targets for a shoot. They are only slightly more liable to actually attend club meetings and vote on issues important to the club. Considering all the trouble that is caused by the class, the drop in tournament participation because of their shooting habits and often nasty attitudes (I know that as fact) and the lack of support from them, AS A GROUP, they are worse than worthless when it comes down to the bottom line.
You might ask HOW I know why participation fell. I' m a club officer and when you see a trend like that, you investigate. I got on the phone and called former members and asked why they quit shooting. And now I' ve found out about that nasty lie that' s been told about our club and is now floating around. Again participation drops at the hands of open class shooters.
That is not prejudice talking, my friend. That' s sad experience.
Fun shoots. As someone that is actually involved in putting on tournaments for our club, I can tell you exactly what a fun shoot is for. And what it' s NOT for. It' s NOT for high level competition practice while everyone else is out for a day of shooting and socializing.
And yes, I have had a goal or two in my life. Thanks so much for asking.
By the way, since our club has been abandoned by the compound segment of shooters, we' ve done just fine. Tradtitionalists LOVE to shoot our place simply because the compounds aren' t there. Since our club is open to all equipment, it' s not the way I' d like to have things, but that' s the way it is. Since there are no all traditional clubs in our neck of the woods, I think we could do quite well as an all trad club. I believe there may be a vote coming up on that in the not-to-distant future.
05-12-2003, 12:49 PM
#29
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3
RE: ? about 3D shoots
It would seem to me the entire purpose of a 3 Dimensional shoot would be to simulate hunting situations.[] If you merely wanted to compete, wouldn' t you use targets that facilitate scoring much easier than a plain torso? It would certainly seem if you wanted to be competitive and see who was the best archer you would go make all other situations equal and have just 2 dimensional targets. If you wanted to see who was the best at taking difficult shots in various hunting situations you would try to replicate that situation as best you could, which would include using what you would take to the field.[] So, if you want to be a competitive archer use the 2 dimensional targets, if you want to just have fun or pretend you are hunting use the 3-d ones.[:-]
] If you merely wanted to compete, wouldn' t you use targets that facilitate scoring much easier than a plain torso? It would certainly seem if you wanted to be competitive and see who was the best archer you would go make all other situations equal and have just 2 dimensional targets. If you wanted to see who was the best at taking difficult shots in various hunting situations you would try to replicate that situation as best you could, which would include using what you would take to the field.[] So, if you want to be a competitive archer use the 2 dimensional targets, if you want to just have fun or pretend you are hunting use the 3-d ones.[:-]
05-12-2003, 02:46 PM
#30
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
RE: ? about 3D shoots
Arthur,I know for a fact that I don' t help with setting up shoots at our club anymore strictly because of people with your attitude toward us.I for one get tired of hearing all the crap and getting lumped into a stereotype.Set up a target and someone starts talking about how I was setting it up for me.Or set up a target and it' s too open.It ' s too trashy it' s too this or it' s too that.You are not a good hunter because you shoot all the gadgetry.A person can only take so much crap,so then he doesn' t show up anymore and then he is stuck up or just plain better than the other person.My group of friends have been secretaries,treasurers and national spokesmen for the sport overall.We all get chastised because of the equipment and not the person or abilities.That my friend is prejudice no matter how you slice it.
You want to know the sad part.I for one love to set up shoots.I love to pick up and put out targets but I don' t love hearing the crap.
As far as shooting the other equipment and shooting trashy shots.I have shot many toughman shoots that require to shoot through tree branches,over the side of hill where all you see is the back of the target.I have done very well at all aspects of shooting.The only shooting I havn' t done well is traditional.I have done it and had success in the field but not on the range.It really isn' t that hard to have a shoot that everyone enjoys.That is why everyone has different stakes to shoot from.Also everyone has there own perogative to shoot what they enjoy.
I shot 3 weeks ago with self bow shooters and we had a great time.I didn' t hear the crap from them and I think they had the same views as you untill they actually shot with me.We laughed and cut up and razzed each other just like I always do.
As for shooting 3-d targets or target butts.Those lines on the targets are very good indicators as what to expect on a live animal.If you shoot a 10 you can expect a short tracking job and if it is an 8 then you can expect a bit longer one.If it is a 5,well you need to keep practicing.Now when a 3-der starts shooting for these areas.He has no choice but to become better at the shooting placement on live game.It doesn' t matter if he is shooting a scope or a pin site or instinctively.It is a sport that is there for all to enjoy and we shouldn' t have to listen to the bickering.If you don' t like the stuff,then don' t shoot it.
You want to know the sad part.I for one love to set up shoots.I love to pick up and put out targets but I don' t love hearing the crap.
As far as shooting the other equipment and shooting trashy shots.I have shot many toughman shoots that require to shoot through tree branches,over the side of hill where all you see is the back of the target.I have done very well at all aspects of shooting.The only shooting I havn' t done well is traditional.I have done it and had success in the field but not on the range.It really isn' t that hard to have a shoot that everyone enjoys.That is why everyone has different stakes to shoot from.Also everyone has there own perogative to shoot what they enjoy.
I shot 3 weeks ago with self bow shooters and we had a great time.I didn' t hear the crap from them and I think they had the same views as you untill they actually shot with me.We laughed and cut up and razzed each other just like I always do.
As for shooting 3-d targets or target butts.Those lines on the targets are very good indicators as what to expect on a live animal.If you shoot a 10 you can expect a short tracking job and if it is an 8 then you can expect a bit longer one.If it is a 5,well you need to keep practicing.Now when a 3-der starts shooting for these areas.He has no choice but to become better at the shooting placement on live game.It doesn' t matter if he is shooting a scope or a pin site or instinctively.It is a sport that is there for all to enjoy and we shouldn' t have to listen to the bickering.If you don' t like the stuff,then don' t shoot it.