Helical question
03-30-2003, 08:28 AM
#11
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: Helical question
Atlasman
Need to know what type of bow you are shooting, your setup, peak weight, draw length, release or fingers, type of rest, vanes, type of shafts, broadhead weight, etc, and what " flight issues" you were having, or have.
Stay tuned. There are many shooters that will have different advice and opinions. Somewhere in the mix, you should find the solution and your best setup. However, finding the cure and establishing the best setup is not always a simple task. Depends on how serious you are about tweaking to the ultimate.
Just for starters, I want to say something about the " other side of the coin" regarding helical vs. other.
1. The NEED for helical, especially SEVERE helical, CAN be an indicator that there are other problems with your form or your setup, and it is requiring some degree of helical to cancel the overlooked (true) problem(s).
2. Helical CAN be counterproductive to good flight/accuracy when shot off SOME of today' s fast bows.
3. SOME carbon/graphite shafts do not shoot well with helical.
4. Small diameter shafts do accept helical very well and cause rest clearance problems that often cannot be resolved unless you go to a drop-away, which in my opinion, only introduces more (possible) problems or failure while in the field, and more maintenance.
5. If helical is being required to cancel other unknown problems, the shaft will loose speed and accuracy as the helical imparts forces to correct bad flight.
PS:
Not always true!
Need to know what type of bow you are shooting, your setup, peak weight, draw length, release or fingers, type of rest, vanes, type of shafts, broadhead weight, etc, and what " flight issues" you were having, or have.
Stay tuned. There are many shooters that will have different advice and opinions. Somewhere in the mix, you should find the solution and your best setup. However, finding the cure and establishing the best setup is not always a simple task. Depends on how serious you are about tweaking to the ultimate.
Just for starters, I want to say something about the " other side of the coin" regarding helical vs. other.
1. The NEED for helical, especially SEVERE helical, CAN be an indicator that there are other problems with your form or your setup, and it is requiring some degree of helical to cancel the overlooked (true) problem(s).
2. Helical CAN be counterproductive to good flight/accuracy when shot off SOME of today' s fast bows.
3. SOME carbon/graphite shafts do not shoot well with helical.
4. Small diameter shafts do accept helical very well and cause rest clearance problems that often cannot be resolved unless you go to a drop-away, which in my opinion, only introduces more (possible) problems or failure while in the field, and more maintenance.
5. If helical is being required to cancel other unknown problems, the shaft will loose speed and accuracy as the helical imparts forces to correct bad flight.
PS:
Spin does indeed equal stability.
03-30-2003, 09:08 AM
#12
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 4,668
RE: Helical question
Atlasman
Need to know what type of bow you are shooting, your setup, peak weight, draw length, release or fingers, type of rest, vanes, type of shafts, broadhead weight, etc, and what " flight issues" you were having, or have.
Need to know what type of bow you are shooting, your setup, peak weight, draw length, release or fingers, type of rest, vanes, type of shafts, broadhead weight, etc, and what " flight issues" you were having, or have.
Before I waste your time........the bow was paper tuned, the heads were aligned in every possible way with the vanes, heads were changed between shafts, heads were taken apart and reassembled to be sure they were a tight fit, bow was taken to 2 different shops and looked at by a half dozen different guys that all said it was in tune, field tips stacked arrows out to 30 yards with great arrow flight, broadheads flew OK but had random flyers that would go off target by a foot or more in random directions.........switched to the WASP mechanical and they flew exactly with my field tips and my sig shows how they performed.
I wish I could get Muzzy' s to fly straight......As of right now I can' t. Hope you can help because no one else has.
Depends on how serious you are about tweaking to the ultimate.
1. The NEED for helical, especially SEVERE helical, CAN be an indicator that there are other problems with your form or your setup, and it is requiring some degree of helical to cancel the overlooked (true) problem(s).
03-30-2003, 04:24 PM
#13
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: Helical question
Atlas:
Because you say that you get good accuracy and flight with other shaft setups, I am going to do something that one should never do when trying to track down a flight and accuracy problem. I am going to ignore some of the many possible causes and land squarely on some of your gear.
First, although I can read, I do not shoot carbons and I am not personally familiar with " fall away" rests. I will point out some things I personally know, have questions about, or know that others have had problems due to certain gear and/or setups, and hope that those shooters who have used certain gear I speak about, will jump in here and provide some information and advice.
1. Your bow setup/tune and your form can be so close to the line of good vs. bad, the slightest variance in form and release will often throw a shaft off course. Usually, the shooter is aware of this close-to-line situation. However, he or she often believes the situation is innate to the bow and setup, and that there is nothing he or she can do about it other than try and shoot with robotic and programmed form. When the truth is, the shooter was able to get a bad tuned bow, a bad form, and the wrong gear, to perform well as long as the shooter did not cross the " line of departure."
2. I do not shoot 4-bladed broadheads, but I am aware of shooters who were (also) unable to get 4-bladed broadheads to fly consistently well. Why? I do not know and I have not researched why. However, I doubt whatever flight problems may occur with 4-bladed broadheads, it would make a shaft fly 12" off the point of aim, and in two different directions.
3. Short shafts are notorious for small mistakes being compounded into greater flight and accuracy problems.
4. Shafts mounted with broadheads lighter than 100 grains are (often) known to affect flight when mounted on certain spined shafts, of certain weights, and shot off bows having high peaks and fast speeds. I believe the problem is TOC related, especially on short shafts. I personally would not shoot a broadhead lighter than 125 grains.
5. Complaints about certain Muzzy heads not flying consistently good, is not uncommon.
As I said, I do not shoot carbons and have never set one up. However, something about your shaft spine, length, broadhead weight, and the bow' s peak weight is not ringing true. Someone with more knowledge about carbon shaft setup, jump in here.
For starters, and boiling it down, the things that come to mind regarding such a drastic off-course flight, and in two different directions, are:
1. Bad shaft(s). Confirm if same shaft are the shafts that are flying erratic.
2. Vanes are clipping something, sometimes.
3. Unconsciously grasping bow (sometimes) upon release.
4. Shaft setup is creating wrong spine for bow' s set draw-weight.
5. Something occurring with drop-away rest.
Before I would decide that it is a helical setting that will be the cure-all, I would look for some of the above, first.
At season' s end, I always relax the limbs on my bows. When I crank the limbs back up, I sometimes have a similar flight problem. But I always follow a rule I learned a long time ago.Never select and setup a shaft to a preferred and set draw-weight. Pick a shaft and shaft setup that will fall within a range of a draw-weights you will settle for, and dial in the bow to the shaft.
I have one bow that I wanted to shoot at 65-lbs. When I dialed in the bow until I was getting superb shaft flight and accuracy, I ended up with a draw-weight of 65-lbs. On my new bow, I wanted to shoot 65-lbs. but after dialing in my bow to the shafts, I ended up at 67-lbs. draw-weight.
Let us see what other shooters say or suspect.
Because you say that you get good accuracy and flight with other shaft setups, I am going to do something that one should never do when trying to track down a flight and accuracy problem. I am going to ignore some of the many possible causes and land squarely on some of your gear.
First, although I can read, I do not shoot carbons and I am not personally familiar with " fall away" rests. I will point out some things I personally know, have questions about, or know that others have had problems due to certain gear and/or setups, and hope that those shooters who have used certain gear I speak about, will jump in here and provide some information and advice.
1. Your bow setup/tune and your form can be so close to the line of good vs. bad, the slightest variance in form and release will often throw a shaft off course. Usually, the shooter is aware of this close-to-line situation. However, he or she often believes the situation is innate to the bow and setup, and that there is nothing he or she can do about it other than try and shoot with robotic and programmed form. When the truth is, the shooter was able to get a bad tuned bow, a bad form, and the wrong gear, to perform well as long as the shooter did not cross the " line of departure."
2. I do not shoot 4-bladed broadheads, but I am aware of shooters who were (also) unable to get 4-bladed broadheads to fly consistently well. Why? I do not know and I have not researched why. However, I doubt whatever flight problems may occur with 4-bladed broadheads, it would make a shaft fly 12" off the point of aim, and in two different directions.
3. Short shafts are notorious for small mistakes being compounded into greater flight and accuracy problems.
4. Shafts mounted with broadheads lighter than 100 grains are (often) known to affect flight when mounted on certain spined shafts, of certain weights, and shot off bows having high peaks and fast speeds. I believe the problem is TOC related, especially on short shafts. I personally would not shoot a broadhead lighter than 125 grains.
5. Complaints about certain Muzzy heads not flying consistently good, is not uncommon.
As I said, I do not shoot carbons and have never set one up. However, something about your shaft spine, length, broadhead weight, and the bow' s peak weight is not ringing true. Someone with more knowledge about carbon shaft setup, jump in here.
For starters, and boiling it down, the things that come to mind regarding such a drastic off-course flight, and in two different directions, are:
1. Bad shaft(s). Confirm if same shaft are the shafts that are flying erratic.
2. Vanes are clipping something, sometimes.
3. Unconsciously grasping bow (sometimes) upon release.
4. Shaft setup is creating wrong spine for bow' s set draw-weight.
5. Something occurring with drop-away rest.
Before I would decide that it is a helical setting that will be the cure-all, I would look for some of the above, first.
At season' s end, I always relax the limbs on my bows. When I crank the limbs back up, I sometimes have a similar flight problem. But I always follow a rule I learned a long time ago.Never select and setup a shaft to a preferred and set draw-weight. Pick a shaft and shaft setup that will fall within a range of a draw-weights you will settle for, and dial in the bow to the shaft.
I have one bow that I wanted to shoot at 65-lbs. When I dialed in the bow until I was getting superb shaft flight and accuracy, I ended up with a draw-weight of 65-lbs. On my new bow, I wanted to shoot 65-lbs. but after dialing in my bow to the shafts, I ended up at 67-lbs. draw-weight.
Let us see what other shooters say or suspect.
03-30-2003, 05:28 PM
#14
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ks.
Posts: 87
RE: Helical question
C903, when does spin not equal more stability in arrows. There was in fact another good article in one of the hunting rags a while back. Spin either achieved through offset or heli is more accurate. Tru Flights proved it along with others. Im not sure what you consider hype, but to me that aint it. I also think your confusing the feather and vane issue. You can get by with less in a feather. I said that before. Any time you put a feather on, even straight its got built in spin by being right or left wing and naturally laying to the side and also because of more texture, and therefore grabbing more air. Natures own Kurly vane. Can you get by with one degree offset and small cut heads. Sure, with feathers and if every shot you take with the same setup with vanes is with perfect form and conditions. Thats very unrealistic in a hunting envirement. Atlas are your arrows numbered, and is it the same arrow every time flying erratic. If not, number those puppies and find out. As I go back and read your post I see youve mixed and matched heads so its obviously a random problem. I have seen some problems with cable slide mounted dropaways where the cable controlling the action will occasionally upon release make contact with arrow or fletch. In fact with the Nap and their hard cable thats where Id look first. Ive seen this first hand and read of the problem with many others. If that cables flopping and banging those shafts, bhd flight will suffer. Id coat that whole arrow and the cable also with foot spray and make sure the only mark I was getting was from the prongs. If its indeed the cable, rip that thing off and go with something softer like release rope or serving. Definately one of NAPS dumber ideas. Mizek musta been off on vacation hunting when they got the bright idea for the hard cable. I think you can definately mark off one and four on 903s list. Its very possible its a combination of 2 and five. As far as answer number three. Thats the idea with either more heli or offset and spin and why it is a better setup for b.hds. It wont of course fix the problem if form is responsible for the erratic arrows, but it will make them more managable.
03-30-2003, 06:26 PM
#15
Typical Buck
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: west central,wi
Posts: 903
RE: Helical question
How about trying 3 bl 75gr muzzy' s. My draw is 26" I shoot blackhawk vapor' s
with feather' s straight heli I shoot 60# at 255 fps tru ball release, just about the same set up as you except I use a 2 prong rest this set up shoot' s 6" grouping' s
at 30yrds with the 3 blade 75gr muzzy' s.
with feather' s straight heli I shoot 60# at 255 fps tru ball release, just about the same set up as you except I use a 2 prong rest this set up shoot' s 6" grouping' s
at 30yrds with the 3 blade 75gr muzzy' s.
03-30-2003, 08:35 PM
#16
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 4,668
RE: Helical question
Atlas:
1. Your bow setup/tune and your form can be so close to the line of good vs. bad, the slightest variance in form and release will often throw a shaft off course. Usually, the shooter is aware of this close-to-line situation. However, he or she often believes the situation is innate to the bow and setup, and that there is nothing he or she can do about it other than try and shoot with robotic and programmed form. When the truth is, the shooter was able to get a bad tuned bow, a bad form, and the wrong gear, to perform well as long as the shooter did not cross the " line of departure."
1. Your bow setup/tune and your form can be so close to the line of good vs. bad, the slightest variance in form and release will often throw a shaft off course. Usually, the shooter is aware of this close-to-line situation. However, he or she often believes the situation is innate to the bow and setup, and that there is nothing he or she can do about it other than try and shoot with robotic and programmed form. When the truth is, the shooter was able to get a bad tuned bow, a bad form, and the wrong gear, to perform well as long as the shooter did not cross the " line of departure."
I realize that slight variations in form can throw off a shot. If you use this as an excuse though it can and will drive you nuts. The bad part about this (even though it is true) is it is so hard to pinpoint. It MAY be my form........it may NOT be. I have seen many people that I know I shoot as well as or better have no trouble with heads flying so I really don' t think it is me (could be wrong though).
2. I do not shoot 4-bladed broadheads, but I am aware of shooters who were (also) unable to get 4-bladed broadheads to fly consistently well. Why? I do not know and I have not researched why. However, I doubt whatever flight problems may occur with 4-bladed broadheads, it would make a shaft fly 12" off the point of aim, and in two different directions.
I am going to shoot 3 blade this year to eliminate this possability.
3. Short shafts are notorious for small mistakes being compounded into greater flight and accuracy problems.
Well I can' t make my arms any longer so no sense worrying about it
4. Shafts mounted with broadheads lighter than 100 grains are (often) known to affect flight when mounted on certain spined shafts, of certain weights, and shot off bows having high peaks and fast speeds. I believe the problem is TOC related, especially on short shafts. I personally would not shoot a broadhead lighter than 125 grains.
Again, I know a ton of people that have no trouble shooting heads of 100 grains or less even. I took my buck with a 75 grain WASP mechanical. I just shot the head that was closest to my field tip weight because they fly so well.
5. Complaints about certain Muzzy heads not flying consistently good, is not uncommon.
As I said, I do not shoot carbons and have never set one up. However, something about your shaft spine, length, broadhead weight, and the bow' s peak weight is not ringing true. Someone with more knowledge about carbon shaft setup, jump in here.
1. Bad shaft(s). Confirm if same shaft are the shafts that are flying erratic.
2. Vanes are clipping something, sometimes.
3. Unconsciously grasping bow (sometimes) upon release.
Shaft setup is creating wrong spine for bow' s set draw-weight.
5. Something occurring with drop-away rest.
It just seems like things should not be so complex. I can see minor issues here and there but come on........it can' t be this hard or not many people would have good BH flight.......DAMN IT I have friends that screw heads on and just keep stacking arrows without missing a beat........if anything they just have to fine tune a hair [:@] [:@] [:@] I am happy for them but makes my blood boil that I had so much trouble
Thanks
03-31-2003, 07:22 AM
#17
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: Helical question
Well I can' t make my arms any longer so no sense worrying about it
DAMN IT I have friends that screw heads on and just keep stacking arrows without missing a beat..
PS: How old is your bow and how many arrows do you believe you have shot off the bow? A nephew of mine was having similar problems. He was getting inconsistent flyers of 6" to 7" off POA. I told him to take bow to pro shop and have bow checked for limb and/or wheel problems. Problem was identified as worn shims and worn cam bushings. Replaced both and cured flyer problem.
03-31-2003, 07:28 AM
#18
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ks.
Posts: 87
RE: Helical question
Atlas, I wish I had you and the bow in front of me. Be alot easier. Have you spray tested the cable linkage on the rest. Thats the only thing thats making sense to me because I have seen it with the Naps and hard cable before. You wont see that much difference in grouping with f.pts. or mechs but if its sometimes banging the shaft with b.hds. they can fly God knows where. It doesnt take much to send a fixed blade on a new course.Make sure your cables adjusted as short as possible. That will take some experimentation to find out what you can get away with as far as drop timeing so Id probably wait on that for now. For now make sure the twists are out of that cable and at rest the cable is either bowed up or down. Bowed in, bad. Get the twist out, spray it, look for any contact. Thats just the only thing to me that makes sense if its truly random. If you can get good groups all day long with f.pts and mechs, but ocassional horrrid random flyers with b.hds. its either form related or something is lightly banging the arrow once in a while. Im gonna trust you on the form issue, so if its random arrows it has to be a contact issue. Thats the best I can do without seeing you shoot or the setup. Wish I could do more, but dont give up.
03-31-2003, 08:32 AM
#19
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: Helical question
Fletchhead
In terms of physics of " drag" affects only, you are correct when you say that some spin can contribute to stability. However, I am speaking in terms of too much helical for the setup, or helical being a problem for the setup e.g., clearance issues.
As for all shafts having some degree of spin in flight, I like to use the terms " spin" and " rotate," only to indicate more or less rotation. Full-blown helical will impart a greater " spin" than the " rotation" that will occur with straight or 1-4 degree of offset fletch/vane.
When you say that feather-fletch will " …lay to the side," are you actually saying that the entire fletch will bend sideways?
Also, as for feathers vs. vanes regarding speed of stabilizing the shaft and downrange speed, that argument has been won a long time ago. Feathers stabilize a shaft much faster, and for the first 30-50 yards, dependent upon setup, vanes cannot catch the feathered shaft. Tests have shown that a feathered shaft leaves the bow approximately 25 fps to 27 fps faster than a vaned shaft does.
Additionally, for those who like " spin," slow-frame videos have shown that an offset/helical feather begins to spin/rotate as soon as the shaft leaves the string, but that plastic/mylar vanes with helical/offset do not start to turn/spin until 7' to 8' AFTER clearing the BOW.
Calculate the above stated data into average yardage of a shot at a deer, and a close in shot. Not to mention feather vs. vane clearance and contact-in-flight issues.
http://www.trueflightfeathers.com/facts.htm
As for " Atlas' " problem, sure is beginning to point to the drop-away rest.
In terms of physics of " drag" affects only, you are correct when you say that some spin can contribute to stability. However, I am speaking in terms of too much helical for the setup, or helical being a problem for the setup e.g., clearance issues.
As for all shafts having some degree of spin in flight, I like to use the terms " spin" and " rotate," only to indicate more or less rotation. Full-blown helical will impart a greater " spin" than the " rotation" that will occur with straight or 1-4 degree of offset fletch/vane.
When you say that feather-fletch will " …lay to the side," are you actually saying that the entire fletch will bend sideways?
Also, as for feathers vs. vanes regarding speed of stabilizing the shaft and downrange speed, that argument has been won a long time ago. Feathers stabilize a shaft much faster, and for the first 30-50 yards, dependent upon setup, vanes cannot catch the feathered shaft. Tests have shown that a feathered shaft leaves the bow approximately 25 fps to 27 fps faster than a vaned shaft does.
Additionally, for those who like " spin," slow-frame videos have shown that an offset/helical feather begins to spin/rotate as soon as the shaft leaves the string, but that plastic/mylar vanes with helical/offset do not start to turn/spin until 7' to 8' AFTER clearing the BOW.
Calculate the above stated data into average yardage of a shot at a deer, and a close in shot. Not to mention feather vs. vane clearance and contact-in-flight issues.
http://www.trueflightfeathers.com/facts.htm
As for " Atlas' " problem, sure is beginning to point to the drop-away rest.
03-31-2003, 11:34 AM
#20
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ks.
Posts: 87
RE: Helical question
C109, Nice picture. No what Im saying is with a dropaway, he can shoot as much heli or offset as he wants. Clearance as far as fletch to rest isnt the issue. My point being with feathers, either being right or left wing, even if put on straight they will want to go over to one side or the other, bend wise or grain wise. Im not explaining this well. I cant think or how to word it.According to your picture, that isnt true. I will stand corrected on that issue untill I see a clearer picture.