Elementary Bow Tuning Question -changing from 125 to 100gr

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08-13-2008, 10:51 AM

#11

GMMAT

Dominant Buck

Join Date: Oct 2005

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RE: Elementary Bow Tuning Question -changing from 125 to 100gr

Quote:

I concluded that the lack of complete pass throughs was due to my lack of KE(61#)

According to your numbers, above....I'd say that WASN'T it. You have more with the lighter setup.

08-13-2008, 10:51 AM

#12

brucelanthier

Nontypical Buck

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Southern MD

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RE: Elementary Bow Tuning Question -changing from 125 to 100gr

Quote:

ORIGINAL: jackflap

Quote:

If the speed of your arrow is a big concern then a heavier arrow may not be for you]

Arrow speed is not a huge concern, but if I am not gaining any KE (and based on my calculations, I am not) what would be the benefit of the heavier arrow?

LOL At the risk of starting another huge KE vs Momentum debate: The heavier arrowhas more momentum and more penetration potential even though it may be traveling slower(less KE). A heavier arrow also facilitates a better energy transfer from the bow to the arrow. There are other benefits as well.

08-13-2008, 10:55 AM

#13

YooperMike

Nontypical Buck

Join Date: Aug 2005

Location: Cenral Illinois

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RE: Elementary Bow Tuning Question -changing from 125 to 100gr

Honestly, the Rage may just not be for you in this case. If you are worried about the KE, then you could just stick with your muzzys or another fixed head, Slick Trick is my suggestion, and be all set. For me, bowhunting has a ton to do with confidence, and if you have ANY doubt in your setup, it is going to affect your results. Without upgrading your bow, and your draw length, I think you have maxed out your bow as far as KE goes becasue like you have done, an increase in weight is really going to drop your speed. I am lucky in a sense with a 32" draw, my arrows are inherently heavy just based on length alone.

08-13-2008, 11:08 AM

#14

GMMAT

Dominant Buck

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RE: Elementary Bow Tuning Question -changing from 125 to 100gr

The original question was concerning arrow flight with the lighter head. If the lighter head is producing erratic arrow flight.....then the KE numbers cited are not accurate (for the lighter head).

THAT would be MY concern....and why I would think I might not have gotten pass-thrus. The KE (obviously....if he was getting them with LESS KE in the other setup) is NOT the issue.

08-13-2008, 12:06 PM

#15

jackflap

Typical Buck

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RE: Elementary Bow Tuning Question -changing from 125 to 100gr

Quote:

The original question was concerning arrow flight with the lighter head. If the lighter head is producing erratic arrow flight.....then the KE numbers cited are not accurate (for the lighter head).

THAT would be MY concern....and why I would think I might not have gotten pass-thrus. The KE (obviously....if he was getting them with LESS KE in the other setup) is NOT the issue.

Yes my original question was and still is what is the reason that I am not getting as good a hole through paper with the 100 vs the 125 while not changing anything else. One can assume that this correlates to "some" erratic arrow flight as compared to the previous. But as I said, the differences in the holeswas not "significant" just "noticeable", so how much difference in "inefficiency" due to erratic arrow flight between the two and how much loss of "applied" KE is involved, I am not sure.

As far as your suggestion of not paper tuning but have someone observe from behind, well I am not sure that I agree that this exercise can replace or substitute for paper tuning, but putting that aside, when doing so, the arrow "appears" to fly straight and true.

But once I get done with elk, I intend to tune with the lighter set up for a perfect arrow hole so as to eliminate this possibility of loss of KE due to erratic arrow flight.

But Jeff, just because a particularKE level works for a fixed doesn't necessarily mean that level ofKE isn't the problem with a head such as the rage. Granted, it takes very little KE to open the blade, but you have a much wider head that has to penetrate the hide twice as well as go through or around ribs, robbing the arrow of it KE much quicker than a smaller diameter head.

So while I do not have enough experience or replications with the Rage, to say this as an absolute, I am still "leaning" towartds the idea that 61#KE is not enough energy for this TYPE of head IF a complete pass thru is a must.

Only when I am 100% sure that bow is completely in tune with that particular broadhead and only after I have shot a few more deer with it, will I have a STRONG opinion in this regard, one way or the other.

But as has also mentioned on here in other posts, is a partial pass thru just as good as a complete pass thru? For me at this point, I have to say "no", but I understand the argument that would state otherwise.

Again, not trying to start another Rage thread, but rather a tuning question.

08-13-2008, 12:23 PM

#16

GMMAT

Dominant Buck

Join Date: Oct 2005

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RE: Elementary Bow Tuning Question -changing from 125 to 100gr

Quote:

As far as your suggestion of not paper tuning but have someone observe from behind, well I am not sure that I agree that this exercise can replace or substitute for paper tuning, but putting that aside, when doing so, the arrow "appears" to fly straight and true.

You'll get people from both camps (paper tuning v. BH tuning) touting their own method. I just don't see the significance of having a perfectly paper tuned setup if I'm not getting true arrow flight. If I'm getting true arrow flight.....the paper tuning would concern me a "little".....but the flight of the arrow doesn't lie (personal opinion....and I may get my hand slapped for saying so

). How far back are you standing to paper tune?

Quote:

But Jeff, just because a particularKE level works for a fixed doesn't necessarily mean that level ofKE isn't the problem with a head such as the rage.

IMO it does....when you're talking over 60FP's. If your bow is tuned properly.....what else could be the reason. 61FP's is sufficient to get pass-thrus at normal whitetail hunting scenario distances (shot distances).

Quote:

Granted, it takes very little KE to open the blade, but you have a much wider head that has to penetrate the hide twice as well as go through or around ribs, robbing the arrow of it KE much quicker than a smaller diameter head.

Agreed. But the additional speed is a factor in the computation of the KE. It's going faster than the heavier head......hence your higher KE reading.

Quote:

So while I do not have enough experience or replications with the Rage, to say this as an absolute, I am still "leaning" towartds the idea that 61#KE is not enough energy for this TYPE of head IF a complete pass thru is a must.

Interesting take. I've just always heard that it was plenty (again...assuming we're talking if shot from a well tuned bow at normal whitetail hunting shot distances).

Quote:

Only when I am 100% sure that bow is completely in tune with that particular broadhead and only after I have shot a few more deer with it, will I have a STRONG opinion in this regard, one way or the other.

Completely agree.

Quote:

Again, not trying to start another Rage thread, but rather a tuning question.

Agreed, again. We coud as easily be discussing a different head.....even larger.

08-13-2008, 12:29 PM

#17

BowHuntingFool

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Join Date: Feb 2003

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RE: Elementary Bow Tuning Question -changing from 125 to 100gr

Quote:

ORIGINAL: jackflap

I have always shot 125gr broadheads and tuned my bow accordingly. On numerous shots over the years, I have always had complete pass throughs with the exception of one time.

Last year I experiemented with a 100 gr broadhead (RAGE) and while I killed and recovered all three deer shot with the rage, I didn't get complete pass throughs on any of them.

I concluded that the lack of complete pass throughs was due to my lack of KE(61#) as compared to those that were more satisfied with this particular broadhead and touted closer if not over 70#KE.

But it was suggested on here that it could be a tuning issue as well since I switched BH weight.

So with that in mind, I paper tuned my bow for verification with a 125 gr field point. Perfect arrow holes everytime. I then put a 100 gr field point on the same arrow and got a slight tear to the left. (It should be noted that I am a left handed shooter, so I am assuming that it would be equivalent to a right tear for most of you.)

It is not a significant tear, and I would suspect some would consider it close enough to a perfect hole to consider it tuned. However, it is a noticeable difference as compared to the 125gr point.

So what does this tell me? Is it 1)Wrong arrow for the reduced weight(Unerspined/Overspined)? I am shooting carbon arrows.

Or 2)is this to be expected when you alter the weight and FOC of your arrow by 25gr even with the correct arrow relative to the set up and one just simply has to "re-tune" when changing.

Or could it be a combination of both?

I won't re-tune or alter arrow selection until after elk season as I will be using the 125 fixed BH while pursuing them and I am very satisfied as how they are flying, both through paper and 40-50 yards out with a broadhead.

Just wondering what I might do different if I decide to try the 100gr again this year for whitetails.

You could always get your tip weight back up to 125gr or even heavier using weighted inserts! They work excellent!