HuntingBry

Matt, I'm not saying that the results you have seen and documented with your own experience aren't true, but even the QDMA says managing properties 250 acres and under is difficult to impossible without entering into a coop with neighboring landowners. Reason being the effects of outside properties bleed into the controls you are trying to apply because the property is so small. Do you have coops or at least neighbors that are following management practices as well? If so, that is great and I hope you guys continue to see the positive results. If not, maybe your results will inspire some of them to follow suit.

GMMAT

BRY:

What you speak of is what I fight. Sometimes it seems futile.

I have to keep tellling myself that I can't control THEM, though (the bad eggs).

For the most part.....we have formed a quasi. co-op. The land owners are taking does, also. The poachers (poaching neighbors)....we can't control. With the access onto the new lands.....I hope to keep them out as best I can. They used to have sole access of these grounds....by virtue of the landowner not allowing ANY hunting. With my presence, there, this year, I hope to be able to curttail their escapades. To be honest, though.....I value my life more than "deer". I'll move out when gun season kicks in.

Rick James

I know it's work. Keep doing what your doing though and I bet it will change. I'd expect it to take 1-2 more years for you Jeff to see a noticable difference. That's what it took both Dan and I.

With that said, I think increasing age structure of bucks is going to be very difficult to do on a property ofour size considering the pressure surrounding us (mine is 130acres, Dan's is 160 acres, both surrounded by knuckleheads).We are seeing more mature bucks now than 3-5 years ago, but I'm not sure if that's simply because we are hunting smarter. Hopefully we will see some progress this year though and see some of the countless 2.5's we didn't shoot at for the last several years.

At this point I can only think of one scenario where passing of a specific buck at 2.5 ended up in a definite sighting of him at 3.5+..............and unfortunately that one ended up like this (for those of you who remember this story). I had quite a history with this guy, wish it would have ended differently. [&:]

Rick James

Bryan:

I'm familiar with what QDMA says, I've been a member since 2001. My property has one neighbor that isn't QDMA exactly, but he won't shoot bucks unless they 8+ pointers. He won't shoot does. The other neighbor has given Dan and I exclusive permission to bowhunt, but gets slammed during gun season.My other neighbors are a circus and often trespass on our patches as well, although I think we will fix that this year. Dan's property is surrounded by public property and other neighbors that shoot everything that walks.

I do not think it will be an easy task to improve age structure of the bucks unless you have 500+ acres. You may see measurable results, but certainly not what you would have if you could control an entire 500+ acre patch. We have seen limited success with that so far, but nothing that I would say is measurable and can be contributed directly to our choice to not shoot. I hope this will change, if not I will continue to do the same thing only because I know I can't shoot a big buck if my tag is already full with a small one. I do however strongly believe that you can directly affect the buck/doe population by thinning the doe herd. For every doe you take, if you have good bedding/food resources available another deer seems to replace it within a year. I've seen this consistently. It's a 50/50 chance it will be a buck/doe. Keep shootingthe does at a higher rate than what your attracting to relocate to your patch, and it's simple math. It works, and what Dan and I have seen is measurable, and no........none of our neighbors have helped with this.

rybohunter

1.What's the herd dynamics where you hunt (doe v. buck numbers & overall deer numbers)? Overall deer numbers are VERY high. Too high. Buckoe Ratio isn’t ideal, but its not grossly out of whack.
[/b]
2. What's your preferred method of hunting (your ideology)? Trophy, only? "Opportunist" (take bucks and does)? Does, only....with the occasional buck? I am a hammer the does type of guy, and shoot a buck only if it’s a nice one. (“Trophy” to some)
[/b]
3. What would be your preferred method if you had a good herd structure (buck:doe ratio was good....and deer numbers were in check)? The same. I can’t[/b] get enough doe tags to deplete(or seriously affect) my areas population, so I would still shoot as many as I had tags for. If my herd had a larger population of mature bucks, I MAY get a little pickier on buck size, but as it stands, any mature looking nice size (P&Y) buck is fair game. [/b]
[/b]
4. Doesyour herd dynamics affect your preferred method? Do you overlook herd dynamics and hunt "your" way? No they seem to go hand in hand. [/b][/b]

GMMAT

Let me get your take on this, Matt....

In the 2006 season.....I saw probably 14 or more 1.5 yr olds. I only took a precious few does, that year (2). Last year.....through a change of ideology.....I can attest to over THIRTY killed (by hunters and by sighted road/other kills).

In 2007....I saw NONE of the 1.5's as 2.5's. None. Of the 2-3 2.5's I saw in 2006.....I saw NONE of them as 3.5's in 2007 (which doesn't really surprise me. They are elsuive). I can only guess that the sheer number of does pushes them out of this habitat to take up home ranges, elsewhere. I also realize that buggering up my spots shooting does....AND by shooting the first doe that offers a shot....."probably" aided in my reduced buck sightings. But what's puzzling is.....no one was "managing" this land prior to 2006.....and they were there.

But I "have" to (for sanity's sake) hope I'll begin to keep more of the youngsters around to grow older, as I take more and more does. It'll hurt my buck hunting, while we're doing this.....but that's the "discipline" (one part of it)I think you're eluding to.

rybohunter

Jeff,
I think from year to year, the numbers of bucks a person sees can very greatly...as you've shown. I always see lots of 1.5 bucks. But I really don't ever see a ton of 2.5's. One year I did see maybe 8 or so. But the next I only saw 1-2 despite probably seeing 12-15 1.5's each year previous.

Vito1

The farm I hunt is around 2,000 acres. Maybe 20% is hardwoods, the rest is ag. Our location in SW Michigan has a high deer density. We do our best to take as many does as we can while shooting bucks 2.5 yrs or older. This was started 3 years ago and we have taken around 30 does between8 hunters. We try to shoot them at anytime except the first 2 weeks of November when we concentrate on the bucks. Its not a perfect plan but hunting has been more fun for us with a bigger goal in mind.

Rick James

Jeff - I think you will see an improved buck/doe ratio in another year or two. To do this though, you need to keep shooting does, and ultimately keep that population below the carrying capacity, and if possible, improve the habitat (both bedding/food) to raise the capacity of the land. If the herd is below carrying capacity you will attract new deer to the property......it just seems to happen and it seems to happen at a rate of 50/50 at my place. If your shooting does at a faster rate than what the ratio of deer relocating there is,you will slowly start to see more bucks than does. It's simple math and it works.

As for seeing the bucks you have passed.............I don't know if you will see measurable results from this. It's been limited at my place and Dan's. What I have seen, is new bucks that I've never seen before, some of them are shooters some of them are not. I believe they are relocating there because of the "space" I'm making by thinning the does. They don't seem to stick around for more than a year or so though, and I'm not sure if that's because we suck as hunters, if the neighbors/trespassers are getting them, etc. I think it's because we don't have control of a big enough area to really "protect" them.

I said above there is only one scenario where a buck we chose not to shoot made it to being mature, and I was actually wrong. The one pictured above was one scenario, and the NY rifle buck I killed in 06' (Dan aged as 3.5, he's certified in NY to age deer and worked for DEC doing so) Dan passed as a 2.5 duringbow season the year before. So that's 2 seperate instances where passed deer were seen as an older "shooter" buck. Limited success there, but if you keep thinning the does the new bucks just seem to appear every year. Hope this helps.

GMMAT

Thanks, Rybo. What's disheartening, to a degree, is hunting 48 times and seeing FOUR different bucks......3 of which were 1.5's.