Arthur P

If an animal twists while an arrow is going thru it, it is reacting to the shot (either sound or movement), not the arrow impact. Even if the ribcage is 24" wide, an arrow going 180 fps is going to be thru the ribcage in 11/1,000ths of a second. At 250 fps, it will take around 74/10,000 of a second to pass thru.

Sitting with a watch in my hand set on chrono mode and punching the start/stop button as fast as I can, my best time is 13/100ths of a second. Now, I know exactly when I punch the button and know that I have to punch it again, immediately, so my reaction time is geared up. Ideally, you should be shooting at a relaxed animal. So, the deer won' t know when the arrow will hit and will be a complete suprize when it does, and that will make reaction time slower. So, the arrow will hit and SHOULD be in the dirt on the other side at least 10 times faster than the deer can react to the impact.

Again, if the animal twists or jumps while the arrow is in it (assuming a clean double lung passthru), it is reacting to either the sound of the shot or some movement the hunter made. Good camo and not removing too many branches can help mask movment. A quiet shot is helped by heavier arrows, and fingers release. I don' t care how quiet your bow is, releases are noisy critters. Not long ago, I was watching a guy shoot a new Legacy. VERY quiet bow. The only sound that really stood out was the metallic click of the release jaws snapping open.

Another possible product for Simms. Release silencers!

pdq 5oh

Don' t laugh Arthur, I have trigger and jaw suppressers on my release.

Lilhunter

its interesting stuff Art....but I have to say I have had a couple deer jump my string with a 55lb recurve and 23/64 ash arrows. That bow was whisper quiet, the doe was at 7 or 8 yards. She was completly clueless to my presence, by the time the arrow was there she was almost belly to the ground.

I think regardless how quiet our bows are (obvioulsy quietr is better) The speed of sound still prevails. Now the reaction time I feel is where the completly on edge animal vs the suspicious animal vs the clueless to the world animal is where it all plays into. They still hear it bar none, but may not react to it for whatever reason or may jump to the moon before the arrow arrives!

IrishLad32

As far as setting up for a marginal shot; that' s a ridiculous idea. Why would you plan for something to go wrong? If you' re thinking it' s going to happen then it' s going to happen.

From what Newton told us about the laws of motion, it' s harder to stop a heavier object than it is a lighter object. Inertia is the quality of an object out of motion to stay out of motion, and an object in motion to stay in motion. The more mass an object has, the more inertia it has. Therefore we can deduce that it would be harder to stop a heavier arrow down range than it would be a lighter arrow. Afterall, we aren' t trying to shoot deer at point blank ranges. As far as thin, light carbons, (and I don' t know a lot about them) I reckon they get their advantage because they' re thinner and they don' t flex as much as wood and aluminum.

Hey, Olink, I' d like to know how an animal is going to contract its muscles to pinch an arrow when your broadhead was supposed to have cut it. I didn' t know there was muscle in the lungs either. The majority of the chest cavity is going to be empty.

Brandan

Olink

Arthur - while I agree with you that a deer twisting its body is probably due to hearing shot noise, an arrow hitting and cutting flesh will cause an autonomic response of muscle contraction. Think of how fast you jump back when you get a shock of static electricity. You have no control of it and it happens VERY fast. It' s supposed to be even faster in animals. I' ve read many articles by archers who hunt African (large and dangerous) game and many of them use skinny carbons (heavily weighted, of course) because of their better penetration. I' ve even read one article by Chuck Adams where he stated that he felt that a skinny carbon has a penetration advantage. (I should have saved that article, he doesn' t say it too often.)

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hafa8pt

Hey ' bees' my idea at the time was a double lung shot. Both times the deer twisted and ducked and both deer were within 25 yards. In one case the arrow took out a lung and sliced the heart and the other time it took out the lung. I really believe the short recovery distance was due in part to blood loss from the bone injury. My arrows are traveling at about 280fps definitely not supersonic but adequate.

PABowhntr

I do not mean to sound argumentative but why is that whenever there is a discussion of penetration we usually end up with two opposing camps. One camp, the light, fast carbon camp loves to use Kinetic Energy as their basis to support their use of equipment. The other camp, the heavy, slower aluminum camp always wants to use momentum as their basis to support their use of equipment.

I always see numbers and equations thrown around to support both sides but rarely do I actually see a true comparison test. What do you think would be something trully representative of a live animal short of shooting one itself? Ballistic gelatin? An old shoulder blade saved from a prior deer harvest? Any ideas at all?

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Buck Magnet

Here is something for you guys to think of, speed and arrow weight both react in the same manner when it comes to KE.

Take a 350 grain arrow shooting at 310 feet per second, that is going to get roughly 75 foot pounds of kenetic energy.

Take a 450 grain arrow shooting at 275 feet per second, that is going to get roughly 75 foot pounds of kenetic energy.

This doesn' t work on the extreme fast/slow/light/heavy ends, but for normaly use, if you use a ligther arrow that shoots faster, you will get the same KE as a heavier arrow shooting slower.

Also, who the heck really cares? I am pretty sure that the deer don' t give a crap as to wether or not it is a heavy/light carbon/aluminum arrow going through them.

Shot placement is more important than any KE/arrow weight/speed/blah blah blah. These topics amuse me.

O yeah guys, here is something for you to discuss....... if you want something to talk about, talk about the set-up that I will be using with my new MightyMite.

2003 BowTech MightyMite (70# draw weight - 30" draw length). I will be shooting 31" Beman ICS Hunter 400 Carbon Arrows. The total arrow weight with my broadhead will be 394.4 grains. This arrow weight will give me around 303 feet per second speeds. Now, my arrow weight and speed combination will give me a KE of 80 foot pounds. Guess what, thats legal for African Game. Now, discuss.......