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Is PA better hunting after the AR and Doe regulation change
04-02-2008, 09:03 AM
#13
Typical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Chambersburg, PA
Posts: 812
RE: Is PA better hunting after the AR and Doe regulation change
I will agree that the doe slaughter needs to stop also. Either return to the 3 day doe only season or cut the number of tags in half. Here is some proof ofthe restrictions working. These are buckthat where taken this year. http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=519&q=173813
04-02-2008, 09:38 AM
#14
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cogan Station, PA
Posts: 2,298
RE: Is PA better hunting after the AR and Doe regulation change
ORIGINAL: PABuck_HNTR
I have seen alot more 2.5and older bucks. Doe numbers are down for sure, but right from the very start of this program we were told what needed to happen. Deer numbers had to be cut down in order for the habitat to sustain them and other species. They said this right from the beginning.
I understand that alot of guys can't put the time in that it takes to be successful these days, butjust because you buy a tag, that alone doesn't guarantee you a deer anymore. The old days are gone for good. We will never see deer numbers they way they used to be
I have seen alot more 2.5and older bucks. Doe numbers are down for sure, but right from the very start of this program we were told what needed to happen. Deer numbers had to be cut down in order for the habitat to sustain them and other species. They said this right from the beginning.
I understand that alot of guys can't put the time in that it takes to be successful these days, butjust because you buy a tag, that alone doesn't guarantee you a deer anymore. The old days are gone for good. We will never see deer numbers they way they used to be
04-02-2008, 10:10 AM
#15
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location:
Posts: 346
RE: Is PA better hunting after the AR and Doe regulation change
The area Istarted hunting 2001 was fantastic. It is phenomenal now for big buck sightings. The doe numbers plummeted in the last two years though.Iwentfrom seeingto many doesto hardly seeing anyat all. The number and size of bucks hasjumped big time.I honestlyhesitate talking about what I've seen at the end of some days, when others claim to have seen nothingas far as bucks go,for fear of being called a liar. Some times I can't believe how fortunate I am to have such a spot.
04-02-2008, 10:10 AM
#16
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Howard PA USA
Posts: 2,221
RE: Is PA better hunting after the AR and Doe regulation change
I agree that AR's are working. One thing that drives me crazy is the organizations like the Unified Sportsmen of PA screaming about the low doe numbers and the Game commission tricked them. Well I sat through 3 of those meetings with Dr. Alt and he stressed in each and every one of them that the herd needed to be reduced and this would be done with larger doe license allocations. I do believe the licenses could have been allocated a bit better, but overall I give the system a thumbs up. Like others have stated times have changed for deer hunting in PA and we won't be going back to the old ways of managing a herd. Now I personally have not seen the drop in doe numbers on the farm I hunt due to a neighboring property refusing to hunt doe. So I still have a buck to doe ratio that is out of wack. But I can see the difference north of I-80 in the big woods of sproul state forest where the doe numbers are extremely low, but there is also a problem up there with food sources. Everyone is quick to blame too many doe licenses on the over harvesting of the deer in those areas, but I believe that played a part in it but also the lack of food has driven those deer that were left to seek other areas to live where food is abundant. Just take a drive up that way and you will see a browse line as high as a deer can reach with nothing but ferns as undergrowth, and we all know Deer do not eat ferns. But like I stated earler all in all I think the PGC is doing a good job and pray they stay the course.
04-02-2008, 10:18 AM
#17
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cogan Station, PA
Posts: 2,298
RE: Is PA better hunting after the AR and Doe regulation change
ORIGINAL: PA Hardwoods
I agree that AR's are working. One thing that drives me crazy is the organizations like the Unified Sportsmen of PA screaming about the low doe numbers and the Game commission tricked them. Well I sat through 3 of those meetings with Dr. Alt and he stressed in each and every one of them that the herd needed to be reduced and this would be done with larger doe license allocations. I do believe the licenses could have been allocated a bit better, but overall I give the system a thumbs up. Like others have stated times have changed for deer hunting in PA and we won't be going back to the old ways of managing a herd. Now I personally have not seen the drop in doe numbers on the farm I hunt due to a neighboring property refusing to hunt doe. So I still have a buck to doe ratio that is out of wack. But I can see the difference north of I-80 in the big woods of sproul state forest where the doe numbers are extremely low, but there is also a problem up there with food sources. Everyone is quick to blame too many doe licenses on the over harvesting of the deer in those areas, but I believe that played a part in it but also the lack of food has drive those deer that were left to seek other areas to live where food is abundant. Just take a drive up that way and you will see a browse line as high as a deer can reach with nothing but ferns as undergrowth, and we all know Deer do not eat ferns. But like I stated earler all in all I think the PGC is doing a good job and pray they stay the course.
I agree that AR's are working. One thing that drives me crazy is the organizations like the Unified Sportsmen of PA screaming about the low doe numbers and the Game commission tricked them. Well I sat through 3 of those meetings with Dr. Alt and he stressed in each and every one of them that the herd needed to be reduced and this would be done with larger doe license allocations. I do believe the licenses could have been allocated a bit better, but overall I give the system a thumbs up. Like others have stated times have changed for deer hunting in PA and we won't be going back to the old ways of managing a herd. Now I personally have not seen the drop in doe numbers on the farm I hunt due to a neighboring property refusing to hunt doe. So I still have a buck to doe ratio that is out of wack. But I can see the difference north of I-80 in the big woods of sproul state forest where the doe numbers are extremely low, but there is also a problem up there with food sources. Everyone is quick to blame too many doe licenses on the over harvesting of the deer in those areas, but I believe that played a part in it but also the lack of food has drive those deer that were left to seek other areas to live where food is abundant. Just take a drive up that way and you will see a browse line as high as a deer can reach with nothing but ferns as undergrowth, and we all know Deer do not eat ferns. But like I stated earler all in all I think the PGC is doing a good job and pray they stay the course.
04-02-2008, 10:25 AM
#18
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Phoenixville, PA USA
Posts: 5,541
RE: Is PA better hunting after the AR and Doe regulation change
The ARs are working, no doubt. Now that doe numbers are reduced in many areas it will help the herd, but obviously hurts the hunting for the guys trying to fill the freezer. The days of seeing 50+ deer on opening day are gone, but that is fine with me knowing that I have a realistic chance at a true trophy. It's nice to know that I can match wits with some older bucks and not just hope there isa "big one" running around out there that might cross my path.
I give the program a thumbs up, but the next 5 years will be very telling of how they plan to maintain what they've started. I'm hopefully optimistic.
I give the program a thumbs up, but the next 5 years will be very telling of how they plan to maintain what they've started. I'm hopefully optimistic.
04-02-2008, 10:30 AM
#19
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 9,085
RE: Is PA better hunting after the AR and Doe regulation change
i will say its better. much better IMO...
yes, the years before, i seen much more deer(rifle hunting..didnt bowhunt then) took me 4 years of rifle hunting pretty hard to see an antlered buck! that was the first year ARs and herd reduction started...he was legal by ARs and i did kill him. killed my fair share of does and dad did as well.
now, i see alot less deer, rifle, flintlock and bow hunting. i hunt from october till january now...bow season im on stand..rifle and flint im usually with the crew doing small drives. but, i do see ALOT MORE antlered bucks. even in rifle season i see more antlered bucks, so i know its not just the fact that i started bowhunting. my buck to doe sightings is actually probably really close to being even...sometimes i even see more bucks than does. like bow season last year, every deer i could identify was an antlered buck. i didnt ID one single doe. seen a hand full of deer i just caught a glimpse of and couldnt ID, but by body language and size im willing to bet most of them were bucks as well. when driving in rifle and flint season, we see the same...a couple groups of does here and there...but usually put up a much better number of bucks than in previous years.
we have the food...we have the genetics....now we need age structure. take my buck for example from last year...1.5yo, taken from the mountains where no crops can be found within a few miles, and last year there wasnt ANY within a few miles...usually a corn field or 2 within a few miles but not last year...and he was legal state wide...(took him from a 3pt to a side area) the ARs save some deer...but IMO not enough. too many 1.5yo deer ARE legal. yes, im contradicting myself and took a 1.5yo buck...but he was legal and my first bowkill and i was happy with him. chances are great that he would been killed anyways, though you never know that...i just know that set of woods has well over 20 guys hunting it opening day of rifle season...
and, alot of sub-legal bucks are killed still...its all too easy for guys to get that 4 or 6pt back to camp or the barn and butchered and taken care of without getting seen or noticed...and alot of guys shoot first and count later...not uncommon to find dead illegal bucks with well placed bullet wounds...or guys will shoot them and tag them with their kids tag etc etc...alot of people dont realize how much of a problem it is....but they just dont WANT to see it if they try denying that it happens ALOT and enough to make the system not function properly. i have no problem with jr hunters being allowed to take them...but slobs and poachers get under my skin...we could have a pretty good herd if we tried...and PA offers it all from farm land hunting, to urban hunting, to hunting BIG WOODS and everything inbetween...
but all in all its looking better...i cant say the bucks have gotten bigger...just more of them, and i guess there are a few more "nicer" ones and bigger ones..but thats just because we seem to have more bucks than before...before, a 2.5yo buck was something to brag about...getting a little more common in my areas...
yes, the years before, i seen much more deer(rifle hunting..didnt bowhunt then) took me 4 years of rifle hunting pretty hard to see an antlered buck! that was the first year ARs and herd reduction started...he was legal by ARs and i did kill him. killed my fair share of does and dad did as well.
now, i see alot less deer, rifle, flintlock and bow hunting. i hunt from october till january now...bow season im on stand..rifle and flint im usually with the crew doing small drives. but, i do see ALOT MORE antlered bucks. even in rifle season i see more antlered bucks, so i know its not just the fact that i started bowhunting. my buck to doe sightings is actually probably really close to being even...sometimes i even see more bucks than does. like bow season last year, every deer i could identify was an antlered buck. i didnt ID one single doe. seen a hand full of deer i just caught a glimpse of and couldnt ID, but by body language and size im willing to bet most of them were bucks as well. when driving in rifle and flint season, we see the same...a couple groups of does here and there...but usually put up a much better number of bucks than in previous years.
we have the food...we have the genetics....now we need age structure. take my buck for example from last year...1.5yo, taken from the mountains where no crops can be found within a few miles, and last year there wasnt ANY within a few miles...usually a corn field or 2 within a few miles but not last year...and he was legal state wide...(took him from a 3pt to a side area) the ARs save some deer...but IMO not enough. too many 1.5yo deer ARE legal. yes, im contradicting myself and took a 1.5yo buck...but he was legal and my first bowkill and i was happy with him. chances are great that he would been killed anyways, though you never know that...i just know that set of woods has well over 20 guys hunting it opening day of rifle season...
and, alot of sub-legal bucks are killed still...its all too easy for guys to get that 4 or 6pt back to camp or the barn and butchered and taken care of without getting seen or noticed...and alot of guys shoot first and count later...not uncommon to find dead illegal bucks with well placed bullet wounds...or guys will shoot them and tag them with their kids tag etc etc...alot of people dont realize how much of a problem it is....but they just dont WANT to see it if they try denying that it happens ALOT and enough to make the system not function properly. i have no problem with jr hunters being allowed to take them...but slobs and poachers get under my skin...we could have a pretty good herd if we tried...and PA offers it all from farm land hunting, to urban hunting, to hunting BIG WOODS and everything inbetween...
but all in all its looking better...i cant say the bucks have gotten bigger...just more of them, and i guess there are a few more "nicer" ones and bigger ones..but thats just because we seem to have more bucks than before...before, a 2.5yo buck was something to brag about...getting a little more common in my areas...
04-02-2008, 10:32 AM
#20
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,716
RE: Is PA better hunting after the AR and Doe regulation change
I've often wondered if the herd numbers really needed to be reduced quite so dramatically... For example, what would it have been like... Let's just say for the sake of argument - that a 4-point-side-minimum antler restriction would've been installed in 1980 (and the doe season stayed the same)?
Do you think we'd have seen BOTH big bucks AND good deer numbers?
I, for one, think you can have your cake and eat it too.
I just don't think you have to have deer densities at 4-6 per square mile to grow a big buck - not even in areas replete with pole timber and a high browse line.
So yeah, I love the antler laws, but I think it would've worked out just fine even WITHOUT the herd reduction.
The reason PA wasn't growing big bucks was due to lack of age structure - not because they were malnutritioned.
By instituting a dramatic herd reduction, in conjunct with the AR - they certainly made it easier for a buck to get big - by virtue of eliminating his food competition - but I think there was enough food to go around - at least in MOST areas. (Not all).
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In my honest opinion - PA sports some of the best whitetail habitat on the planet - but we'll never have true "trophy whitetail hunting" until the number of hunters in the state reduces by at least 50%.
Do you think we'd have seen BOTH big bucks AND good deer numbers?
I, for one, think you can have your cake and eat it too.
I just don't think you have to have deer densities at 4-6 per square mile to grow a big buck - not even in areas replete with pole timber and a high browse line.
So yeah, I love the antler laws, but I think it would've worked out just fine even WITHOUT the herd reduction.
The reason PA wasn't growing big bucks was due to lack of age structure - not because they were malnutritioned.
By instituting a dramatic herd reduction, in conjunct with the AR - they certainly made it easier for a buck to get big - by virtue of eliminating his food competition - but I think there was enough food to go around - at least in MOST areas. (Not all).
_____________________________________
In my honest opinion - PA sports some of the best whitetail habitat on the planet - but we'll never have true "trophy whitetail hunting" until the number of hunters in the state reduces by at least 50%.