Brace Height ????
02-29-2008, 10:21 AM
#11
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cogan Station, PA
Posts: 2,298
RE: Brace Height ????
ORIGINAL: Paul L Mohr
Technically this is correct and it's a cool theory, but I don't buy it. I personally believe that anything you did to the shot you did before you released the arrow, unless the arrow or the string hits something on the way. Arrows leave the bow waaaaay too fast for us to actually mess anything up during the shot. I think what most feel happened during the shot actually occurred just before releasing the arrow, not while it was leaving the bow. If you are using a fingered release the arrow is gone before you can even get the finger off the trigger or register that the shot has happened. We simply can't react that fast. Any motion that could effect arrow flight or aiming was already started before the arrow left.
Brace height does effect string slap though depending on how your grip/form is, how big your arms are and how many clothes you are wearing. Which is why having a generous amount brace height is nice on a hunting bow. And the STS devices will help with that. However I thought the idea was to have the string NOT hit anything, not have it hit on purpose? But I guess I would rather have it hit consistently than just sometimes or to varying degrees.
When I look at a bow I am more concerned with reflex and riser length rather than brace height. If I look at two bows and one is 320 fps and the other is 330 fps but one has a lot of reflex to the grip and the other doesn't I'm picking the one with less reflex even though it might have a bit less speed, or even a lower brace height. Reflex will effect forgiveness because it helps induce torque into your grip. And I like a bow with a long riser as well, it seems more stable to me than one with a short riser and long limbs.
My opinions anyway.
Paul
Technically this is correct and it's a cool theory, but I don't buy it. I personally believe that anything you did to the shot you did before you released the arrow, unless the arrow or the string hits something on the way. Arrows leave the bow waaaaay too fast for us to actually mess anything up during the shot. I think what most feel happened during the shot actually occurred just before releasing the arrow, not while it was leaving the bow. If you are using a fingered release the arrow is gone before you can even get the finger off the trigger or register that the shot has happened. We simply can't react that fast. Any motion that could effect arrow flight or aiming was already started before the arrow left.
Brace height does effect string slap though depending on how your grip/form is, how big your arms are and how many clothes you are wearing. Which is why having a generous amount brace height is nice on a hunting bow. And the STS devices will help with that. However I thought the idea was to have the string NOT hit anything, not have it hit on purpose? But I guess I would rather have it hit consistently than just sometimes or to varying degrees.
When I look at a bow I am more concerned with reflex and riser length rather than brace height. If I look at two bows and one is 320 fps and the other is 330 fps but one has a lot of reflex to the grip and the other doesn't I'm picking the one with less reflex even though it might have a bit less speed, or even a lower brace height. Reflex will effect forgiveness because it helps induce torque into your grip. And I like a bow with a long riser as well, it seems more stable to me than one with a short riser and long limbs.
My opinions anyway.
Paul
However, I didn't mention the power stroke implying that it equates to more forgiveness, but if you look at the draw force curve, a short DL archer will be able to make up some "area" under the curve by shooting a shorter brace height, compared to a longer draw archer shooting a higher brace hieght, correct? That's the main reason I mentioned the powerstroke.
02-29-2008, 10:49 AM
#12
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location:
Posts: 7,367
RE: Brace Height ????
ORIGINAL: M.Hensler/PA
Also keep in mind, as a general rule of thumb, shorter DL archers can get away with shorter brace heights than those with the longer DLs, as the arrow is not on the string as long with a shorter DL and short brace height compared to a longer DL and the same short brace height, thus yielding a more forgiving setup than the long DL archer. Actually having a shorter DL coupled with a shorter brace height will allow that archer get more out of the power stroke.
Also keep in mind, as a general rule of thumb, shorter DL archers can get away with shorter brace heights than those with the longer DLs, as the arrow is not on the string as long with a shorter DL and short brace height compared to a longer DL and the same short brace height, thus yielding a more forgiving setup than the long DL archer. Actually having a shorter DL coupled with a shorter brace height will allow that archer get more out of the power stroke.
Dan
02-29-2008, 01:24 PM
#13
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: Brace Height ????
I guess you could argue it, but I still wouldn't buy it. After messing around a lot and seeing slow motion video of arrows being released I don't think it would make a big difference. It would be better to fix the original problem rather than rely on a milisecond of arrow travel to help reduce the effects. And the two things you mentioned would be consistent anyway, so even though they may effect flight they would effect flight to the same degree every time. So the could be tuned out and compensated for. As long as you had consistent form time on the string wouldn't matter. Where less time on the string would help with things that varied from shot to shot, like if the bow were in motion before you released the arrow.
In my opinion once a bow is properly tuned and set up the arrow is going in the direction it was pointed when released. Any differences are either going to be from form, aim or arrow inconsistancies. After seeing slow motion video of arrows be released and playing around with different things myself I just can't beleive the short amount of time the arrow remains on the string is really going to effect anything. I have played with a bow changing the ATA, brace height, timing and other variables and it always shot exactly the same once it was tuned for those specs.
If power stroke mattered women, kids and other short draw archers would dominate the field, where longer draw archers would have trouble competing.
Like I said, technically yes it could make a difference, but I highly doubt anyone would notice it or be able to use it to their advantage. There are way more things to worry about than one inch of brace height in my opinion. One being rest postition, I think a rest in the proper position right over your grip is more forgiving than one that sits behind the shelf giving you a slight overdraw.
Again, these are only my opinions. However until someone can actually prove me wrong with some sort of test I am going to hold to them.
I can't really comment on draw force curves, I've never really messed with or concerned myself with them. Either a bow feels good to me or it doesn't. I have a short draw by the way, 26 inches.
Paul
After messing around a lot and seeing slow motion video of arrows being released I don't think it would make a big difference. It would be better to fix the original problem rather than rely on a milisecond of arrow travel to help reduce the effects. And the two things you mentioned would be consistent anyway, so even though they may effect flight they would effect flight to the same degree every time. So the could be tuned out and compensated for. As long as you had consistent form time on the string wouldn't matter. Where less time on the string would help with things that varied from shot to shot, like if the bow were in motion before you released the arrow.In my opinion once a bow is properly tuned and set up the arrow is going in the direction it was pointed when released. Any differences are either going to be from form, aim or arrow inconsistancies. After seeing slow motion video of arrows be released and playing around with different things myself I just can't beleive the short amount of time the arrow remains on the string is really going to effect anything. I have played with a bow changing the ATA, brace height, timing and other variables and it always shot exactly the same once it was tuned for those specs.
If power stroke mattered women, kids and other short draw archers would dominate the field, where longer draw archers would have trouble competing.
Like I said, technically yes it could make a difference, but I highly doubt anyone would notice it or be able to use it to their advantage. There are way more things to worry about than one inch of brace height in my opinion. One being rest postition, I think a rest in the proper position right over your grip is more forgiving than one that sits behind the shelf giving you a slight overdraw.
Again, these are only my opinions. However until someone can actually prove me wrong with some sort of test I am going to hold to them.
I can't really comment on draw force curves, I've never really messed with or concerned myself with them. Either a bow feels good to me or it doesn't. I have a short draw by the way, 26 inches.
Paul
02-29-2008, 01:44 PM
#14
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cogan Station, PA
Posts: 2,298
RE: Brace Height ????
As long as you had consistent form
), don't practice nearly enough, and don't shot much until September or so to get ready for the season. Unless they are extremely blessed with natural talent, they probably aren't working on consistant form
But that's being nit picky...in the end you're right, and they SHOULD be concentrating on form.
ORIGINAL: Paul L Mohr
If power stroke mattered women, kids and other short draw archers would dominate the field, where longer draw archers would have trouble competing.
If power stroke mattered women, kids and other short draw archers would dominate the field, where longer draw archers would have trouble competing.
). All kidding aside, I'm not arguing at all (in fact I'm waiting to be corrected on all of this). I do see what you're saying though. A lot of this looks good on paper and in theory, but in real world examples there's so many other variables.
02-29-2008, 03:04 PM
#15
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: Brace Height ????
I'm thinking indoor target archery where speed really is of little importance. If speed were important to a short draw archer they could just shoot lighter arrows in most cases. Unless there is minimum arrow weight for the competition they are in. Then I guess they are screwed.
The funny thing is that some of the people that would argue a longer brace height is more forgiving 10 years ago would turn around and shoot a 3 or 4 inch overdraw on their bow to pick up a few feet per second. An overdraw is way less forgiving than an inch or two of brace height is. And today the same people that would argue this will get a bow with 8 inches of brace height, but it's got a 31 inch axle to axle, a very aggressive draw cycle, a ton of reflex in the riser and they mount some new fancy drop a way or WB an inch or so behind the shelf. And then shoot 65 dollar carbon arrows that are the wrong length, probably incorrect for spine, have poor FOC and have never even seen a spin tester. But hey, they were on sale right. And have probably never spent a penny on lessons or even had anyone with any real knowledge watch them shoot. Yet they probably agonized over whether they should get a bow with 8 inches or 6 inches of brace height. Makes sense to me, does it to you.
What I was getting at was that most feel a longer brace height is more forgiving because the arrow spends less time on the string. If you are going to go with that theory than it deals with a decreased power stroke for a given draw length. So that would also mean that a shorter draw length which also has a shorter power stroke would also be more forgiving. So this would lead me to believe that since this was such an advantage the target scene would be dominated by women and short archers. After all they have a built in advantage right off the bat.
Also more draw weight and more aggressive cams would be more forgiving since the string would be moving faster and the arrow would again spend less time on the string. So maybe guys shooting tons of draw weight with high energy cams have the advantage? Oh wait, that also mean that a speed bow with lots of draw weight and aggressive cams and a short brace height would be just as forgiving as a slower bow with a longer brace height. Since the efficiency would be higher and the arrow would spend the same amount of time or less on the string, even though it traveled farther. It's not about distance remember, its about the extra time on the string for you to mess the shot up. Right
So my short bowtech with a speed cam, short draw length and generous brace height should be a forgiving easy to shoot bow. That's not the case for me I will tell you that. Most target bows have slow smooth cams with moderate brace height deflexed risers and lower poundages and heavier arrows. Which means the arrow actually spends more time on the string, not less.
My take on it anyway.
Paul
The funny thing is that some of the people that would argue a longer brace height is more forgiving 10 years ago would turn around and shoot a 3 or 4 inch overdraw on their bow to pick up a few feet per second. An overdraw is way less forgiving than an inch or two of brace height is. And today the same people that would argue this will get a bow with 8 inches of brace height, but it's got a 31 inch axle to axle, a very aggressive draw cycle, a ton of reflex in the riser and they mount some new fancy drop a way or WB an inch or so behind the shelf. And then shoot 65 dollar carbon arrows that are the wrong length, probably incorrect for spine, have poor FOC and have never even seen a spin tester. But hey, they were on sale right. And have probably never spent a penny on lessons or even had anyone with any real knowledge watch them shoot. Yet they probably agonized over whether they should get a bow with 8 inches or 6 inches of brace height. Makes sense to me, does it to you.
What I was getting at was that most feel a longer brace height is more forgiving because the arrow spends less time on the string. If you are going to go with that theory than it deals with a decreased power stroke for a given draw length. So that would also mean that a shorter draw length which also has a shorter power stroke would also be more forgiving. So this would lead me to believe that since this was such an advantage the target scene would be dominated by women and short archers. After all they have a built in advantage right off the bat.
Also more draw weight and more aggressive cams would be more forgiving since the string would be moving faster and the arrow would again spend less time on the string. So maybe guys shooting tons of draw weight with high energy cams have the advantage? Oh wait, that also mean that a speed bow with lots of draw weight and aggressive cams and a short brace height would be just as forgiving as a slower bow with a longer brace height. Since the efficiency would be higher and the arrow would spend the same amount of time or less on the string, even though it traveled farther. It's not about distance remember, its about the extra time on the string for you to mess the shot up. Right
So my short bowtech with a speed cam, short draw length and generous brace height should be a forgiving easy to shoot bow. That's not the case for me I will tell you that. Most target bows have slow smooth cams with moderate brace height deflexed risers and lower poundages and heavier arrows. Which means the arrow actually spends more time on the string, not less.
My take on it anyway.
Paul
02-29-2008, 03:19 PM
#16
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: Brace Height ????
ORIGINAL: M.Hensler/PA
All kidding aside, I'm not arguing at all (in fact I'm waiting to be corrected on all of this). I do see what you're saying though. A lot of this looks good on paper and in theory, but in real world examples there's so many other variables.
All kidding aside, I'm not arguing at all (in fact I'm waiting to be corrected on all of this). I do see what you're saying though. A lot of this looks good on paper and in theory, but in real world examples there's so many other variables.
Paul
02-29-2008, 11:10 PM
#18
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location:
Posts: 76
RE: Brace Height ????
So what do all you guys with the the Hoyt Kateras, 82nd Airbornes, PSE X-Force, etc. with the lower brace heights think? Do you feel just as accurate with those bows? I'm no newbie shooter, but I know I don't have perfect form by any means. Was justwondering if I would notice a difference.
03-01-2008, 09:56 AM
#19
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: Brace Height ????
Shane, I think I was a bit misleading with some of my answers. Let me try to explain it a bit better. Bad form is going to be bad form, it doesn't matter what type of bow you have or how big or small the brace height is.
If you do not anchor, draw, grip or aim consistently from one shot to the next you will still miss. Brace height will not effect this at all. Things that effect this would be lots of reflex in the riser or using an improperly set up or overdraw type rest. Since these types of things can magnify torque and other form errors. Like I said, the arrow normally goes in the direction it is pointed when released. The problem is if you have form issues the arrow isn't always pointed in the same direction and/or the direction you think it is pointed in when you release it. Thus you miss the mark you were aiming at. Archery is all about consistency and repeatability.
The only things brace height will really effect are problems with follow through or aiming. Since the whole issue is with time on the string your bow would need to be in motion before and during the shot in order for brace height to truly effect anything. Like say you can't hold steady while aiming, you have a problem with trying to peek around the bow when you shoot or you drop your bow arm after the shot. In almost every case these are things that start to occur before the shot actually happens. You anticipate the shot and your body starts reacting before the shot actually happens. You think you are dropping your arm after the shot, but you really start the motion right before releasing the arrow. Which means your bow is in motion during the shot. Having the arrow on the string for a longer amount of time in cases like this could technically magnify the problem. My argument is that it happens so fast that it really makes little difference. The minuscule amount of time it takes the string to go that extra inch or so at the end of the draw really isn't going to effect much. By the time it gets that far any damage that would have been done to your arrow flight has already been done. In most cases the arrow is in the target before you can blink your eyes. How much time do you think it takes for the string to travel those last few inches? And how much effect do you think it would really have on the arrow?
Another thing brace height will effect is how the bow feels when you draw it. Because realistically you are drawing the string farther. You may have a 29 inch draw length, but if you go from a bow with 8 inches of brace height to one with 6 inches you are drawing that string 2 inches farther. Which will effect how the bow feels. One of the biggest things that effects how a bow draws is the length of the draw cycle. This is why drawing a bow that is too long for you is always harder than drawing one that fits you. And drawing one that is too short flat out feels wrong.
And obviously brace height will effect how close the string is to your arm or hand when shooting. Some people because of their form and size simply can't shoot a short a brace bow well. They either get string slap on their arm or the back of their hand. Having a lot of weight on the string can effect this as well. I used to have one of those aluminum ultra nocks on my bow and sometimes it would go far enough forward it would touch the back of the my hand when I shot. This is something that could be cured by a STS or MeanV product though. While I'm not a big fan of having my string something at the end of the cycle I would rather have it do it consistently every time than have it not because that will effect your shot.
And the most important thing brace height will effect is your attitude towards it. If you "think" you can't shoot a short brace bow well then guess what, you probably won't. Whether there is an actual difference or not, if you tell yourself there is then there will be. You could be the best shot in the nation, and if enough people told you your equipment sucked and you couldn't shoot well with it I guarantee your scores would start to drop. Once you start to question something its all over. Sort of like divorce, once you bring it up its going to happen. It is not a question of IF, but rather when.
In the end it's going to boil down to how the bow feels to YOU. Handle and shoot them all and pick the one you like the best. If a short brace bow doesn't feel right you will know, especially when you compare it to something else. I am just saying out of all the things I look at in a bows specs the brace height is one that I am least concerned with. And if you can try shooting them with a heavy jacket on or what you would use when you bow hunt. This will let you know if you are going to have any issues with clearance.
Paul
If you do not anchor, draw, grip or aim consistently from one shot to the next you will still miss. Brace height will not effect this at all. Things that effect this would be lots of reflex in the riser or using an improperly set up or overdraw type rest. Since these types of things can magnify torque and other form errors. Like I said, the arrow normally goes in the direction it is pointed when released. The problem is if you have form issues the arrow isn't always pointed in the same direction and/or the direction you think it is pointed in when you release it. Thus you miss the mark you were aiming at. Archery is all about consistency and repeatability.
The only things brace height will really effect are problems with follow through or aiming. Since the whole issue is with time on the string your bow would need to be in motion before and during the shot in order for brace height to truly effect anything. Like say you can't hold steady while aiming, you have a problem with trying to peek around the bow when you shoot or you drop your bow arm after the shot. In almost every case these are things that start to occur before the shot actually happens. You anticipate the shot and your body starts reacting before the shot actually happens. You think you are dropping your arm after the shot, but you really start the motion right before releasing the arrow. Which means your bow is in motion during the shot. Having the arrow on the string for a longer amount of time in cases like this could technically magnify the problem. My argument is that it happens so fast that it really makes little difference. The minuscule amount of time it takes the string to go that extra inch or so at the end of the draw really isn't going to effect much. By the time it gets that far any damage that would have been done to your arrow flight has already been done. In most cases the arrow is in the target before you can blink your eyes. How much time do you think it takes for the string to travel those last few inches? And how much effect do you think it would really have on the arrow?
Another thing brace height will effect is how the bow feels when you draw it. Because realistically you are drawing the string farther. You may have a 29 inch draw length, but if you go from a bow with 8 inches of brace height to one with 6 inches you are drawing that string 2 inches farther. Which will effect how the bow feels. One of the biggest things that effects how a bow draws is the length of the draw cycle. This is why drawing a bow that is too long for you is always harder than drawing one that fits you. And drawing one that is too short flat out feels wrong.
And obviously brace height will effect how close the string is to your arm or hand when shooting. Some people because of their form and size simply can't shoot a short a brace bow well. They either get string slap on their arm or the back of their hand. Having a lot of weight on the string can effect this as well. I used to have one of those aluminum ultra nocks on my bow and sometimes it would go far enough forward it would touch the back of the my hand when I shot. This is something that could be cured by a STS or MeanV product though. While I'm not a big fan of having my string something at the end of the cycle I would rather have it do it consistently every time than have it not because that will effect your shot.
And the most important thing brace height will effect is your attitude towards it. If you "think" you can't shoot a short brace bow well then guess what, you probably won't. Whether there is an actual difference or not, if you tell yourself there is then there will be. You could be the best shot in the nation, and if enough people told you your equipment sucked and you couldn't shoot well with it I guarantee your scores would start to drop. Once you start to question something its all over. Sort of like divorce, once you bring it up its going to happen. It is not a question of IF, but rather when.
In the end it's going to boil down to how the bow feels to YOU. Handle and shoot them all and pick the one you like the best. If a short brace bow doesn't feel right you will know, especially when you compare it to something else. I am just saying out of all the things I look at in a bows specs the brace height is one that I am least concerned with. And if you can try shooting them with a heavy jacket on or what you would use when you bow hunt. This will let you know if you are going to have any issues with clearance.
Paul
