Why the "Rage" doesn't penetrate well -UPDATE page 1 and 5
02-14-2008, 10:19 PM
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Milwaukee WI
Posts: 1,161
Why the "Rage" doesn't penetrate well -UPDATE page 1 and 5
The two pics below are of the Rage 2 blade with a 2" cutting diameter and the Grim Reaper Razortip 3-blade with a 1 3/8 cutting diameter. Both are mechanical BH's. Here'sMY theory on why there is the reported penetration problem with the Rage:
Besides the obvious that 2 inches is a heck of a hole to carve, consider the following observations I have made.
1) The "frame" of the BH itself does not have smooth or well tapered transitions going from the tip blade to the main blades. This can only equal drag as it tries to penetrate through the body of an animal.
2) There are recesses where the screw holes are. Had Rage designed the screws with a flush head, this wouldn't be another source of drag.
3) The bevel or lip created by the o-ring recess is another penetration robber.
4) And for lack of better description, the two "cut-outs" in the main blades is cause for more friction. Imagine the BH trying to push through flesh but the back edges of the cut-outsare catching as the front of the bladesare cutting. A little counter productive in MY opinion.
Whereas... if you look at the Grim Reaper, the blades are slim and have no cut-outs to cause added resistance. There's no lip or bevel because there's no o-ring. No screw holes. And probably best of all, there are smooth tapered transitions throughout the length of the BH.
Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I'm not a representative of Grim Reaper. I don't even own any yet, I'm just another hunter with an opinion based on the physics in my head versus the specs that I see. I'm not advertising but if you asked, I am advocating. Another thing to consider too is that if you add up total cutting surface, the Grim Reaper actually has a 2 1/16 cutting surface compared to the Rage's 2" yet the Grim Reaper will penetrate much better. The multi-fram per second video is on their website if you're interested.
Clarification:
Besides the obvious that 2 inches is a heck of a hole to carve, consider the following observations I have made.
1) The "frame" of the BH itself does not have smooth or well tapered transitions going from the tip blade to the main blades. This can only equal drag as it tries to penetrate through the body of an animal.
2) There are recesses where the screw holes are. Had Rage designed the screws with a flush head, this wouldn't be another source of drag.
3) The bevel or lip created by the o-ring recess is another penetration robber.
4) And for lack of better description, the two "cut-outs" in the main blades is cause for more friction. Imagine the BH trying to push through flesh but the back edges of the cut-outsare catching as the front of the bladesare cutting. A little counter productive in MY opinion.
Whereas... if you look at the Grim Reaper, the blades are slim and have no cut-outs to cause added resistance. There's no lip or bevel because there's no o-ring. No screw holes. And probably best of all, there are smooth tapered transitions throughout the length of the BH.
Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I'm not a representative of Grim Reaper. I don't even own any yet, I'm just another hunter with an opinion based on the physics in my head versus the specs that I see. I'm not advertising but if you asked, I am advocating. Another thing to consider too is that if you add up total cutting surface, the Grim Reaper actually has a 2 1/16 cutting surface compared to the Rage's 2" yet the Grim Reaper will penetrate much better. The multi-fram per second video is on their website if you're interested.
Clarification:
ORIGINAL: Hoytail Hunter
I need to clarify something that I failed miserably to do with the original post. I regret the failure because due to it, most of the focus was on a less important issue and now this thing will never regain it's intended track.This is a situation where what I exactly wrote and what I exactly meant were slightly different things.
First of all, I have 2 hunting buddies that use the Rage. Both bad reports. On top of that, I've read a few complaints on here and elsewhere about the Rage. No, that does not speak for the sum of every person's experience with this BH. Yes, all BH's can fail even in perfect situations that nothing short of ballistics/penetration expertise can answer.
That being said, what I was really trying to say was that "pound for pound" if you could make the saying apply, Rage is not designed for optimal penetration thus cannot out penetrate the Grim Reaper. The 4 observations I cited support that this is what I was mainly trying to get at. In fact, it doesn't even have to be only about Grim Reaper -vs- Rage. I thinkmost if not manyheads will penetrate better than the Rage given all things being equal (meaning poundage, BH and arrow weight, as well as cutting surface).
Take for example the muzzy 4 blade. If you add up total cutting surface, there's probably at least 2 1/2 inches yet there are hardly ever any penetration complaints with the muzzy. Why is this? I think it's because of the sleek gradual tapered design. It's not big, bulky, and awkwardly shaped like the Rage (imo).
I think nodog has correctly wrapped his head around what I'm getting at. And that's all I'm really trying to do here. I'm willing to bet that if you showthe Rage'sdesign to a ballistics/penetration specialist, he'll be able to tell you why it's not an optimal penetrating head.
Rage -vs- Muzzy or Grim Reaper is I think, similar to the aerodynamics on an SUV -vs- asports car.
I need to clarify something that I failed miserably to do with the original post. I regret the failure because due to it, most of the focus was on a less important issue and now this thing will never regain it's intended track.This is a situation where what I exactly wrote and what I exactly meant were slightly different things.
First of all, I have 2 hunting buddies that use the Rage. Both bad reports. On top of that, I've read a few complaints on here and elsewhere about the Rage. No, that does not speak for the sum of every person's experience with this BH. Yes, all BH's can fail even in perfect situations that nothing short of ballistics/penetration expertise can answer.
That being said, what I was really trying to say was that "pound for pound" if you could make the saying apply, Rage is not designed for optimal penetration thus cannot out penetrate the Grim Reaper. The 4 observations I cited support that this is what I was mainly trying to get at. In fact, it doesn't even have to be only about Grim Reaper -vs- Rage. I thinkmost if not manyheads will penetrate better than the Rage given all things being equal (meaning poundage, BH and arrow weight, as well as cutting surface).
Take for example the muzzy 4 blade. If you add up total cutting surface, there's probably at least 2 1/2 inches yet there are hardly ever any penetration complaints with the muzzy. Why is this? I think it's because of the sleek gradual tapered design. It's not big, bulky, and awkwardly shaped like the Rage (imo).
ORIGINAL: nodog
Yes it's the body, bigger than the tip way before it hits the blades so it acts like a wedge. If you drive a wedge through some thing it will blow the back out of some thing like the pic above illustrates.
...PersonallyI don't care. I just commented on the heads design based on what the criteria I believe is and is not good. The head reasembles a nail. A nail is made to grip when it enters, not pass through.
Yes it's the body, bigger than the tip way before it hits the blades so it acts like a wedge. If you drive a wedge through some thing it will blow the back out of some thing like the pic above illustrates.
...PersonallyI don't care. I just commented on the heads design based on what the criteria I believe is and is not good. The head reasembles a nail. A nail is made to grip when it enters, not pass through.
Rage -vs- Muzzy or Grim Reaper is I think, similar to the aerodynamics on an SUV -vs- asports car.
02-14-2008, 10:24 PM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,882
RE: Why the "Rage" doesn't penetrate well
Good post, but the rage has well over 2" entrance upon deployment of the blades. and i think if they made the cut-on-contact tip sharper than what it is i dont think we would here about penatration problems, other than what is common among the mechanical world.
02-14-2008, 10:31 PM
#3
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
RE: Why the "Rage" doesn't penetrate well
Most people are not having penetration problems with the rage heads.BUT,if there are problems it would be more because of the large diameter ferrule than anything else.
02-14-2008, 10:34 PM
#5
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin/Michigan
Posts: 9,679
RE: Why the "Rage" doesn't penetrate well
I killed one deer with the 2 blade this late season. Complete pass thru and stuck in a tree, not one thing wrong with the head, cleaned it up, changed the o-ring and sharped it... back in the quiver! No problems here!
02-14-2008, 10:45 PM
#7
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Posts: 546
RE: Why the "Rage" doesn't penetrate well
ORIGINAL: DropTine249
I have never had a problem with rage heads. All of those deer, not one penetration issue.
In fact, the only none pass throughs I have had were on one doe, and she was drastically quartering away, so my arrow burried into her off side shoulder. And, my buck, but that was the same deal, smacked the bulk of the offside shoulder bone.
So, all pass throughs.
Also, keep in mind that a Grim Reaper has forward deploying blades. So, the blades are not open upon impact like a rages are. Reapers leave a much smaller entrance hole.
There is not another head on the market that compares to the rage. The CLOSEST thing would probably be rocky mountain snipers, and MAYBE that piston point design...Still dont compare on cutting surface.
I have never had a problem with rage heads. All of those deer, not one penetration issue.
In fact, the only none pass throughs I have had were on one doe, and she was drastically quartering away, so my arrow burried into her off side shoulder. And, my buck, but that was the same deal, smacked the bulk of the offside shoulder bone.
So, all pass throughs.
Also, keep in mind that a Grim Reaper has forward deploying blades. So, the blades are not open upon impact like a rages are. Reapers leave a much smaller entrance hole.
There is not another head on the market that compares to the rage. The CLOSEST thing would probably be rocky mountain snipers, and MAYBE that piston point design...Still dont compare on cutting surface.
02-14-2008, 10:47 PM
#8
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,882
RE: Why the "Rage" doesn't penetrate well
I must say i did have a penetration problem, I shot my spike good, but the deployment of the blades caught 3-ribs, and lodge in the opposite ribcage, this was with my element at 65lbs. about a 380ish grn arrow.
02-15-2008, 12:03 AM
#9
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: IL
Posts: 6,575
RE: Why the "Rage" doesn't penetrate well
2" just has more cutting area so more likely to hit bone and stop, also 2" is bigger than 1 3/8" so its like raming a 1" pole into dirt vs a narrow 1/4" pole. same force pushing small dia. into body vs. that same force pushing something larger. though all the pene. problems I've heard with the rage are suspected, never actual, kinda like worried it'll hit bone and stop etc.....though I know a guy take an elk no prob with one, and a whitetail. only heard good things so far. and worries. 2" does seem big, but I'd take them over the 3 blade with less cutting area.
02-15-2008, 01:19 AM
#10
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Central Minnesota
Posts: 9,445
RE: Why the "Rage" doesn't penetrate well
Rage this Rage that!! It might be a good BH but you sure don't here the advertisements for the other great heads like we use too, possibly because its that good. I've seen the results of the Rage and I'm impressed, yet its a mechanical and that says enough for me. The BH I shoot has simmalar blood trails and its a Cut On Contact Head, I guarantee its stronger but it does the job for me.