Why the "Rage" doesn't penetrate well -UPDATE page 1 and 5
02-16-2008, 05:12 AM
#61
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location:
Posts: 21,043
RE: Why the "Rage" doesn't penetrate well
Matt....Thanks for posting that.
I don't feel like I'm a lemming, either.
I switched to the Rage for ONE reason.......the holes!
I took 7 whitetails with a fixed blade and 7 whitetails with the Rage. What amazes me is people who will denegrate thsi head.....having never tested its' performance in the field.
I still recall the "OMG" when I walked up on the fist deer I took with them.
"Marketing Hype"? Maybe. A sound choice? Positively. I see a lot of Rolex commercials during the golf tournaments.....and as I understand ....they're fine watches.
I don't feel like I'm a lemming, either.
I switched to the Rage for ONE reason.......the holes!I took 7 whitetails with a fixed blade and 7 whitetails with the Rage. What amazes me is people who will denegrate thsi head.....having never tested its' performance in the field.
I still recall the "OMG" when I walked up on the fist deer I took with them.
"Marketing Hype"? Maybe. A sound choice? Positively. I see a lot of Rolex commercials during the golf tournaments.....and as I understand ....they're fine watches.
02-16-2008, 05:43 AM
#62
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: York,Pa
Posts: 2,645
RE: Why the "Rage" doesn't penetrate well
ORIGINAL: Matt / PA
The reason they do it is to save weight and achieve the cutting diameters they want with the blade thickness they desire.
To use a full surface blade and maintain the weight needed to achieve the standard 100grs or 125grs etc and squeeze them out to the cutting diameters they use they need to remove some of the material, otherwise they would have to thin the blades out uniformly and thus reduce their integrity.
I still am not convinced that a Grim Reaper head on game will outpenetrate any other head of that style but that's just me and comes from years of shooting jackknife style mechanicals. They simply open differently than the newer rearward style heads and on game, especially when you hit ribs, or other light bone such as the thin area on the shoulder paddle the blades do not deploy smoothly and evenly. They jam and bite because enough penetration is not achived to fully deploy them before the head encounters the bone.The penetration ability of the heads is therefore inhibited almost immediately.
This is where you will get your "bullethole" style entry wounds. The blades didn't encounter uniform soft tissue, hide and hair to allow the blades to sweep open quickly , evenly and smoothly.
That's why shooting ballistic gellatin in a broadhead test means exactly crapola.
There were times where I would have 1 shot give me a gaping entry wound, and the next asmallish entry hole from the same head in what appeared to be the same location on 2 animals but the difference would be hitting a rib on center vs bewteen them.
The issue with Rage heads and any potential penetration issues has to come from 2 things (The ferrule design isn't one of them.......holes open up wider than the ferrule almost immediately.) The penetration is limited by the width of that cut and that alone IMO. You can't argue that a 3 blade with a smaller cutting diameter has more cutting surface because it's punching a hole in a more concentrated area.........a 2" cut single slice wound channel doesn't benefit from this.
You have 2" wide blades that open IMMEDIATELY and they must be pushed through ribs bone immediately as well unless the blade angle and luck finds them actually sliding between the bones without contact. It also takes a well tuned bow keeping the momentum going tip to nock in a straight line and a little extra snot in the KE department if you want consistent and true passthrus.
Trust me, I'm not some fly by night guessing at this stuff mechanical shooter. I've been using mechanical broadheads almost exclusively since 1996 and have been EXTREMELY successful with them because I understand them, uderstand good designs amd understand what types of set-ups will compliment them.
I have taken probably 30+ animals with mechanical heads and have never lost a single one in that time or saw anything that even remotely resembled a broadhead failure.
I have taken deer with:
Rocket Miniblaster
Rocket Sidewinder 3 and 4 blade
Rocket Hammerhead 4blade
Rocket "Slammerhead" (before it was even a marketed head I was building this one on my own)
WASP Jakhammer
NAP Spitfire 2 and 3 blade
NAP Scorpion
Rocky Mt. Snyper 2 AND 3 blade
Rocky Mt. Gator XP
Rage 2 blade
I know mechanicals and I can tell you with certainty booth styles should work fine but they work differently, and both require some extra energy and momentum if you want them sticking in the dirt.
Keep your bow well tuned, and keep em where they are supposed to be.
I am so tired of people condeming a head and the first word out of their mouths in their rant is "Shoulder".
IMO the Rage is not marketing hype, it's a very good performing head and it'd designed to inflict as much lateral damage as possible to soft tissue in conjunction with very large entry wounds. Win-win
Stay off the large bones where NO head is gonna shine and be smart about your decision to use them.
I can use any broadhead I feel like, I have no affiliations with any company whatsoever and my quiver will be full of Rage heads this season.I didn't fall for any marketing HYPE. I used my head understood why and how they should work and see them as an advantage on game.
But they aren't a magic bullet and not one size fits all.
The reason why the vast majority of BH companies do it imo is to save money on materials as well as production.
To use a full surface blade and maintain the weight needed to achieve the standard 100grs or 125grs etc and squeeze them out to the cutting diameters they use they need to remove some of the material, otherwise they would have to thin the blades out uniformly and thus reduce their integrity.
I still am not convinced that a Grim Reaper head on game will outpenetrate any other head of that style but that's just me and comes from years of shooting jackknife style mechanicals. They simply open differently than the newer rearward style heads and on game, especially when you hit ribs, or other light bone such as the thin area on the shoulder paddle the blades do not deploy smoothly and evenly. They jam and bite because enough penetration is not achived to fully deploy them before the head encounters the bone.The penetration ability of the heads is therefore inhibited almost immediately.
This is where you will get your "bullethole" style entry wounds. The blades didn't encounter uniform soft tissue, hide and hair to allow the blades to sweep open quickly , evenly and smoothly.
That's why shooting ballistic gellatin in a broadhead test means exactly crapola.
There were times where I would have 1 shot give me a gaping entry wound, and the next asmallish entry hole from the same head in what appeared to be the same location on 2 animals but the difference would be hitting a rib on center vs bewteen them.
The issue with Rage heads and any potential penetration issues has to come from 2 things (The ferrule design isn't one of them.......holes open up wider than the ferrule almost immediately.) The penetration is limited by the width of that cut and that alone IMO. You can't argue that a 3 blade with a smaller cutting diameter has more cutting surface because it's punching a hole in a more concentrated area.........a 2" cut single slice wound channel doesn't benefit from this.
You have 2" wide blades that open IMMEDIATELY and they must be pushed through ribs bone immediately as well unless the blade angle and luck finds them actually sliding between the bones without contact. It also takes a well tuned bow keeping the momentum going tip to nock in a straight line and a little extra snot in the KE department if you want consistent and true passthrus.
Trust me, I'm not some fly by night guessing at this stuff mechanical shooter. I've been using mechanical broadheads almost exclusively since 1996 and have been EXTREMELY successful with them because I understand them, uderstand good designs amd understand what types of set-ups will compliment them.
I have taken probably 30+ animals with mechanical heads and have never lost a single one in that time or saw anything that even remotely resembled a broadhead failure.
I have taken deer with:
Rocket Miniblaster
Rocket Sidewinder 3 and 4 blade
Rocket Hammerhead 4blade
Rocket "Slammerhead" (before it was even a marketed head I was building this one on my own)
WASP Jakhammer
NAP Spitfire 2 and 3 blade
NAP Scorpion
Rocky Mt. Snyper 2 AND 3 blade
Rocky Mt. Gator XP
Rage 2 blade
I know mechanicals and I can tell you with certainty booth styles should work fine but they work differently, and both require some extra energy and momentum if you want them sticking in the dirt.
Keep your bow well tuned, and keep em where they are supposed to be.
I am so tired of people condeming a head and the first word out of their mouths in their rant is "Shoulder".
IMO the Rage is not marketing hype, it's a very good performing head and it'd designed to inflict as much lateral damage as possible to soft tissue in conjunction with very large entry wounds. Win-win
Stay off the large bones where NO head is gonna shine and be smart about your decision to use them.
I can use any broadhead I feel like, I have no affiliations with any company whatsoever and my quiver will be full of Rage heads this season.I didn't fall for any marketing HYPE. I used my head understood why and how they should work and see them as an advantage on game.
But they aren't a magic bullet and not one size fits all.
02-16-2008, 07:34 AM
#63
Fork Horn
Join Date: May 2006
Location:
Posts: 414
RE: Why the "Rage" doesn't penetrate well
ORIGINAL: Hoytail Hunter
At first there were gonna be 2 things determining penetration then in the immediate sentence following it becomes "the width of that cut alone"? I'm not trying to be difficult or anything negative here but I just don't understand that. It's either one thing or it's two things, not both.
And, I think ferrule design has to be a contributing factor to overall penetration. You cannot tell me that you can plunge a butter knife into aside of beefas easily as you can with a sharp pointed pick of some sort. Whether the difference is negligible or not, there is a definite difference in the coefficient of friction between a smooth slender ferrule versus a fat lumpy awkward one that's filled with screw hole recesses. And yes it's true that holes open up wider than the ferrule almost immediately butthe fact remainsthat those blade making those holes are still at all times,BEHIND the ferrule. If the ferrule stops pushing, the blades quit cutting. This is why I think the ferrule has to push as efficiently as possible so that the blades can do their jobs too.
I'm talking about actual cutting surface. I think you're talking about cutting diameter and mixing the two. So yes, unless I understand incorrectly, a 3 blade 1 3/8" cd has more cutting surface than a 2 blade 2" cd. More cutting surface still requires more push behind it to penetrate the same depth. This is why I think the Rage is not as efficient as it could be considering the Grim Reaper has more cutting surface yet will push further.
Matt/PA ,though it didnudge that part of your post a little off topic, thanks for the tutorial on mechanical broadheads. I'm sure I'll be running into questions only guysof your experiencecan answeronce I start shooting the Reapers this fall. I'm glad you chimed in becausewhere I wanted to go with this was exactly what you talked about.... DESIGN and affects of design.
In caseI cameoff the wrong way to anyone, let me say that this is a learning process for me as I'm sure it is for all of you. My views are merely that and if you can explain things in a way that makes me see the laws of physics differently, I'd be obliged to hear it.
HTH
ORIGINAL: Matt / PA
The issue with Rage heads and any potential penetration issues has to come from 2 things (The ferrule design isn't one of them.......holes open up wider than the ferrule almost immediately.) The penetration is limited by the width of that cut and that alone IMO.
The issue with Rage heads and any potential penetration issues has to come from 2 things (The ferrule design isn't one of them.......holes open up wider than the ferrule almost immediately.) The penetration is limited by the width of that cut and that alone IMO.
And, I think ferrule design has to be a contributing factor to overall penetration. You cannot tell me that you can plunge a butter knife into aside of beefas easily as you can with a sharp pointed pick of some sort. Whether the difference is negligible or not, there is a definite difference in the coefficient of friction between a smooth slender ferrule versus a fat lumpy awkward one that's filled with screw hole recesses. And yes it's true that holes open up wider than the ferrule almost immediately butthe fact remainsthat those blade making those holes are still at all times,BEHIND the ferrule. If the ferrule stops pushing, the blades quit cutting. This is why I think the ferrule has to push as efficiently as possible so that the blades can do their jobs too.
You can't argue that a 3 blade with a smaller cutting diameter has more cutting surface because it's punching a hole in a more concentrated area.........a 2" cut single slice wound channel doesn't benefit from this.
Matt/PA ,though it didnudge that part of your post a little off topic, thanks for the tutorial on mechanical broadheads. I'm sure I'll be running into questions only guysof your experiencecan answeronce I start shooting the Reapers this fall. I'm glad you chimed in becausewhere I wanted to go with this was exactly what you talked about.... DESIGN and affects of design.
In caseI cameoff the wrong way to anyone, let me say that this is a learning process for me as I'm sure it is for all of you. My views are merely that and if you can explain things in a way that makes me see the laws of physics differently, I'd be obliged to hear it.
HTH
Where do you get this information and factfrom? Or is it simply your opinion.
02-16-2008, 07:36 AM
#64
Fork Horn
Join Date: May 2006
Location:
Posts: 414
RE: Why the "Rage" doesn't penetrate well
ORIGINAL: Matt / PA
The reason they do it is to save weight and achieve the cutting diameters they want with the blade thickness they desire.
To use a full surface blade and maintain the weight needed to achieve the standard 100grs or 125grs etc and squeeze them out to the cutting diameters they use they need to remove some of the material, otherwise they would have to thin the blades out uniformly and thus reduce their integrity.
I still am not convinced that a Grim Reaper head on game will outpenetrate any other head of that style but that's just me and comes from years of shooting jackknife style mechanicals. They simply open differently than the newer rearward style heads and on game, especially when you hit ribs, or other light bone such as the thin area on the shoulder paddle the blades do not deploy smoothly and evenly. They jam and bite because enough penetration is not achived to fully deploy them before the head encounters the bone.The penetration ability of the heads is therefore inhibited almost immediately.
This is where you will get your "bullethole" style entry wounds. The blades didn't encounter uniform soft tissue, hide and hair to allow the blades to sweep open quickly , evenly and smoothly.
That's why shooting ballistic gellatin in a broadhead test means exactly crapola.
There were times where I would have 1 shot give me a gaping entry wound, and the next asmallish entry hole from the same head in what appeared to be the same location on 2 animals but the difference would be hitting a rib on center vs bewteen them.
The issue with Rage heads and any potential penetration issues has to come from 2 things (The ferrule design isn't one of them.......holes open up wider than the ferrule almost immediately.) The penetration is limited by the width of that cut and that alone IMO. You can't argue that a 3 blade with a smaller cutting diameter has more cutting surface because it's punching a hole in a more concentrated area.........a 2" cut single slice wound channel doesn't benefit from this.
You have 2" wide blades that open IMMEDIATELY and they must be pushed through ribs bone immediately as well unless the blade angle and luck finds them actually sliding between the bones without contact. It also takes a well tuned bow keeping the momentum going tip to nock in a straight line and a little extra snot in the KE department if you want consistent and true passthrus.
Trust me, I'm not some fly by night guessing at this stuff mechanical shooter. I've been using mechanical broadheads almost exclusively since 1996 and have been EXTREMELY successful with them because I understand them, uderstand good designs amd understand what types of set-ups will compliment them.
I have taken probably 30+ animals with mechanical heads and have never lost a single one in that time or saw anything that even remotely resembled a broadhead failure.
I have taken deer with:
Rocket Miniblaster
Rocket Sidewinder 3 and 4 blade
Rocket Hammerhead 4blade
Rocket "Slammerhead" (before it was even a marketed head I was building this one on my own)
WASP Jakhammer
NAP Spitfire 2 and 3 blade
NAP Scorpion
Rocky Mt. Snyper 2 AND 3 blade
Rocky Mt. Gator XP
Rage 2 blade
I know mechanicals and I can tell you with certainty booth styles should work fine but they work differently, and both require some extra energy and momentum if you want them sticking in the dirt.
Keep your bow well tuned, and keep em where they are supposed to be.
I am so tired of people condeming a head and the first word out of their mouths in their rant is "Shoulder".
IMO the Rage is not marketing hype, it's a very good performing head and it'd designed to inflict as much lateral damage as possible to soft tissue in conjunction with very large entry wounds. Win-win
Stay off the large bones where NO head is gonna shine and be smart about your decision to use them.
I can use any broadhead I feel like, I have no affiliations with any company whatsoever and my quiver will be full of Rage heads this season.I didn't fall for any marketing HYPE. I used my head understood why and how they should work and see them as an advantage on game.
But they aren't a magic bullet and not one size fits all.
The reason why the vast majority of BH companies do it imo is to save money on materials as well as production.
To use a full surface blade and maintain the weight needed to achieve the standard 100grs or 125grs etc and squeeze them out to the cutting diameters they use they need to remove some of the material, otherwise they would have to thin the blades out uniformly and thus reduce their integrity.
I still am not convinced that a Grim Reaper head on game will outpenetrate any other head of that style but that's just me and comes from years of shooting jackknife style mechanicals. They simply open differently than the newer rearward style heads and on game, especially when you hit ribs, or other light bone such as the thin area on the shoulder paddle the blades do not deploy smoothly and evenly. They jam and bite because enough penetration is not achived to fully deploy them before the head encounters the bone.The penetration ability of the heads is therefore inhibited almost immediately.
This is where you will get your "bullethole" style entry wounds. The blades didn't encounter uniform soft tissue, hide and hair to allow the blades to sweep open quickly , evenly and smoothly.
That's why shooting ballistic gellatin in a broadhead test means exactly crapola.
There were times where I would have 1 shot give me a gaping entry wound, and the next asmallish entry hole from the same head in what appeared to be the same location on 2 animals but the difference would be hitting a rib on center vs bewteen them.
The issue with Rage heads and any potential penetration issues has to come from 2 things (The ferrule design isn't one of them.......holes open up wider than the ferrule almost immediately.) The penetration is limited by the width of that cut and that alone IMO. You can't argue that a 3 blade with a smaller cutting diameter has more cutting surface because it's punching a hole in a more concentrated area.........a 2" cut single slice wound channel doesn't benefit from this.
You have 2" wide blades that open IMMEDIATELY and they must be pushed through ribs bone immediately as well unless the blade angle and luck finds them actually sliding between the bones without contact. It also takes a well tuned bow keeping the momentum going tip to nock in a straight line and a little extra snot in the KE department if you want consistent and true passthrus.
Trust me, I'm not some fly by night guessing at this stuff mechanical shooter. I've been using mechanical broadheads almost exclusively since 1996 and have been EXTREMELY successful with them because I understand them, uderstand good designs amd understand what types of set-ups will compliment them.
I have taken probably 30+ animals with mechanical heads and have never lost a single one in that time or saw anything that even remotely resembled a broadhead failure.
I have taken deer with:
Rocket Miniblaster
Rocket Sidewinder 3 and 4 blade
Rocket Hammerhead 4blade
Rocket "Slammerhead" (before it was even a marketed head I was building this one on my own)
WASP Jakhammer
NAP Spitfire 2 and 3 blade
NAP Scorpion
Rocky Mt. Snyper 2 AND 3 blade
Rocky Mt. Gator XP
Rage 2 blade
I know mechanicals and I can tell you with certainty booth styles should work fine but they work differently, and both require some extra energy and momentum if you want them sticking in the dirt.
Keep your bow well tuned, and keep em where they are supposed to be.
I am so tired of people condeming a head and the first word out of their mouths in their rant is "Shoulder".
IMO the Rage is not marketing hype, it's a very good performing head and it'd designed to inflict as much lateral damage as possible to soft tissue in conjunction with very large entry wounds. Win-win
Stay off the large bones where NO head is gonna shine and be smart about your decision to use them.
I can use any broadhead I feel like, I have no affiliations with any company whatsoever and my quiver will be full of Rage heads this season.I didn't fall for any marketing HYPE. I used my head understood why and how they should work and see them as an advantage on game.
But they aren't a magic bullet and not one size fits all.
Very well said!
02-16-2008, 08:10 AM
#65
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 7,876
RE: Why the "Rage" doesn't penetrate well
ORIGINAL: Hoytail Hunter
At first there were gonna be 2 things determining penetration then in the immediate sentence following it becomes "the width of that cut alone"? I'm not trying to be difficult or anything negative here but I just don't understand that. It's either one thing or it's two things, not both.
And, I think ferrule design has to be a contributing factor to overall penetration.
ORIGINAL: Matt / PA
The issue with Rage heads and any potential penetration issues has to come from 2 things (The ferrule design isn't one of them.......holes open up wider than the ferrule almost immediately.) The penetration is limited by the width of that cut and that alone IMO.
The issue with Rage heads and any potential penetration issues has to come from 2 things (The ferrule design isn't one of them.......holes open up wider than the ferrule almost immediately.) The penetration is limited by the width of that cut and that alone IMO.
And, I think ferrule design has to be a contributing factor to overall penetration.
The guy I mentioned earlier does test heads on bone and hard wood. I think he uses hog shoulders and there are some that take the beating. This head also uses a rubber o ring to hold the blades in.
Matt is a good archer and can shoot anything, his post proves it. He is not the majority in experience or strength. The majority cannot. Heads will fail them.
Anybody out there care to weigh some. I'm curious about how much they actually weigh. All those bits and pieces, it would be tough to get them at the labeled weight.
02-16-2008, 08:32 AM
#66
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 7,876
RE: Why the "Rage" doesn't penetrate well
"If" is a big word, I know, but let any part of this head fail and the issue of penetration is compounded greatly. I've busted blades on a thunderhead, more like crack them, the blade is still slicing and dicing. What happens when a rage blade breaks off? It's just not a "forgiving" head in mho. Some guys need things that are more forgiving.
How do you guys practise with them heads anyways? It would drive me nuts cleaning out the ferrule and putting a new ring on everytime. What's the trick? I practise shooting through all kinds of obstructions that a field point wouldn't help me determine things, so just because they shoot the same doesn't help there.
How do you guys practise with them heads anyways? It would drive me nuts cleaning out the ferrule and putting a new ring on everytime. What's the trick? I practise shooting through all kinds of obstructions that a field point wouldn't help me determine things, so just because they shoot the same doesn't help there.
02-16-2008, 08:38 AM
#67
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Milwaukee WI
Posts: 1,161
RE: Why the "Rage" doesn't penetrate well
ORIGINAL: annika3
Where do you get this information and factfrom? Or is it simply your opinion.
ORIGINAL: Hoytail Hunter
"This is why I think the Rage is not as efficient as it could be considering the Grim Reaper has more cutting surface yet will push further."
"This is why I think the Rage is not as efficient as it could be considering the Grim Reaper has more cutting surface yet will push further."
Where do you get this information and factfrom? Or is it simply your opinion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZCYnbIxy8w
The total cutting surface, I got from "pencil and paper" fraction addition.
02-16-2008, 08:38 AM
#68
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,137
RE: Why the "Rage" doesn't penetrate well
I haven't need a bigger whole, I have read on other boards about pentration problems with these heads. Guess it's like anything else in bowhunting it's all in your percentages. How many you shooting vs how many your finding.
02-16-2008, 08:55 AM
#69
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Milwaukee WI
Posts: 1,161
RE: Why the "Rage" doesn't penetrate well
If you'll notice in the vid above, when the Rage was tested against the Grim Reaper on gelatin alone, it only lost by a 2 1/2" penetration margin. As soon as they added deer hide to the gelating, the Rage then lost by 5 inches.A 5 inch loss in a 20 inch race is a miserable failure!
So in response to what Matt/PA said earlier about shooting gelatin meaning crapola, yes it does mean crapola, until you add hide to the equation therefore making the gelatin similar to a deer... and then it means something else.
So in response to what Matt/PA said earlier about shooting gelatin meaning crapola, yes it does mean crapola, until you add hide to the equation therefore making the gelatin similar to a deer... and then it means something else.
02-16-2008, 09:07 AM
#70
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 7,876
RE: Why the "Rage" doesn't penetrate well
ORIGINAL: Hoytail Hunter
If you'll notice in the vid above, when the Rage was tested against the Grim Reaper on gelatin alone, it only lost by a 2 1/2" penetration margin. As soon as they added deer hide to the gelating, the Rage then lost by 5 inches.A 5 inch loss in a 20 inch race is a miserable failure!
So in response to what Matt/PA said earlier about shooting gelatin meaning crapola, yes it does mean crapola, until you add hide to the equation therefore making the gelatin similar to a deer... and then it means something else.
If you'll notice in the vid above, when the Rage was tested against the Grim Reaper on gelatin alone, it only lost by a 2 1/2" penetration margin. As soon as they added deer hide to the gelating, the Rage then lost by 5 inches.A 5 inch loss in a 20 inch race is a miserable failure!
So in response to what Matt/PA said earlier about shooting gelatin meaning crapola, yes it does mean crapola, until you add hide to the equation therefore making the gelatin similar to a deer... and then it means something else.
Hey, Our birthdays coming.