Germ

Atlas there are a few Bioliogist you mught want to read about. Kroll is from MI and has seen both sides of it.

Dr. James Kroll
Ed Spin

He's seen us ballon the populations, he's seens us try to wipe it out in area 452. He seen what happen when whitetails over browse an area. He has done some great projects also.

After you buy your land, first year membership QDMA is on me

GMMAT

No fear, Dan....that's EXACTLY what I was referring to. I remember the conversation, vividly. I don't disagree with your assessment. Im working on it. Preach gave me some great lines, too. Thanks.

peakrut

Especially in our CWD area where all the nubbers are getting wacked.

atlasman

I said hunting management................not population control.

Targeting does to improve hunting quality is pure myth from what I have seen...........buck:doe ratio is borderline meaningless IMO.

GMMAT

Atlas...I'd like for you to expound on this. I honestly value your opinions....but this goes against everything I've heard and read. I'm not saying your logic is flawed.....I'd just like to hear more about why you feel this way.

In one way.....I think you're probably right (if I put my thinking cap on). Carrying capacity is carrying capacity. the land doesn't care if it carries 40 bucks or 40 does. It's just "deer" to the land. But "hunting quality" to many means better "quality" animals....(OK....bucks). Is this where you have a rub with the mindset?

Thanks.

Germ

[/quote]

Well take a look at your location thread

All the states with bigger bucks have few things in common. 1 thing for sure. Doe management
Look at the states who have bigger deer on average how do they differ from NY, MI, and southern states?

They all do a few things well, and Iowa is the best example of them all.

Why do Iowa hunters kill more bigger bucks than Minn? Without a doubt Minn has more and better deer habitat and a lot more. Same for MI and Ohio. So without a doubt proper doe management is a key factor, look at the locations who do so.

Iowa
Ill
Wis
IN
Ohio
KY
KS

They all do other things to help. For example

Ky -OBR- liberal doe permits and a doe tag
Ill - Gun season after the rut shot gun only - liberal doe tags
Iowa - Gun season after the Rut shotgun only - liberal doe permits(shoot more does than bucks again)
Ohio -OBR - Gun season after rut - liberal doe permit.
IN - New kid on the bock, went to OBR and liberal doe permits
Wis - EAB, liberal doe permits
KS - OBR

Look at some states around these areas. Missouri good hunting, but know where near Iowa.
MI way more deer, no where near Ohio, I can tell you we have way better and more habitat also.

Minn is great state to study. Before the 70's Northern Minn was one of the best hunting locations. Anyone wonder what happen? In 1972(If I recall) they had a bad winter killed a pile of deer, so they moved the gun season to the rut, and went toa buck harvest management plant. Funny MI did the samething at the same time.

Iowa looked at what Minn was doing and did the opposite.
BTW what the heck did Maine do
http://www.boone-crockett.org/images/whitetailmaps.jpg


I have been keep my eye on NY. Real similar to MI as for hunter numbers to deer go. It won't happen over night. Basing your premise on what you see about doe management is about as logical as saying ScentLok works because deer were down wind from a hunter and did not wind them

The data shows doe management works.

PA 2008 season or 2009 we are going to see members shoot some biggest deer in there life. Look at 2007 How did PA do it? AR and doe management. They switch the doe season from late to during firearm season.

MI and NY have fewer bigger deer not because of location, but the way we hunt. In MI we need Hunter management.

You yourself had stated "NY has plenty of big bucks" Look at those areas and ask why?
Hunter numbers?
Habitat?
better doe management?

I am a QDMAlife member I won't have to buy any landin MI, but Ohio yes.
QDM whitetails magazine is a great read. Great land management tips.

GMMAT

Oh I don't know......Soil nutrient content?

We have friends in Iowa. The she of that couple loves flowers. She can go out in their yard and dig a hole....plant the flower....and fill it back up with the dirt she removed. If my wife did that.....all we've done is bought a 1 week decoration. Without filling the hole, here, with rich topsoil.....that plant won't not only thrive.....it won't survive.

2 Deer.....both eating corn and soy beans.......one eating them in NC.....one eating them in Iowa. Which one gets bigger? Now compound that through years and years of genetics....and it doesn't take a biologist to figure out why the deer are bigger in some areas of the country.

They eat healthier. They produce healthier offspring because of that fact. And so on....and so on....and so on......

Germ

Jeff and I mean this with the deepest emotion I can munster: I KNOW I am not comapring size of deer from NY, MI or NC to location states. I am comparing the number older bucks in each state.


Bigger is realtive to state. Why do the location states on average have more bigger(older) deer than NY, MI?
NY has more deer the Iowa, real close on habitat. MI has way more deer than Iowa, a pile more of Habitat. Why does Iowa have more older bucks?

Here is article from deer and deer hunting

How does Iowa--a state with a fraction of the deer habitat contained in many other prime whitetail states--maintain such a record? While several factors obviously contribute, arguably the most significant is also the simpliest:They don't hunt bucks with firearms until after the rut is over".

If that isn't a mouthful!

The article credits IDNR biologist and whitetail specialist Lee Gladfelter who helped establish the Iowa deer program and who..."looked around at neighboring states where rifle hunting begins in peak rutting time and saw that most of their bucks were getting cropped off every year. He didn't want us to go that route, and I think he was very wise."

There's another segment on the importance of gun season timing. It mentions Minnesota and how Minnesota once lead the nation in B&C bucks, but how that reputation is now historical. Because in 1974, after several severe Winters devestated northern herds, the Minnesota DNR implemented a season structure that emphasized buck harvest meant to protect does and to grow the herd. Basically, MN's large numbers of mature bucks has never recovered from that decision 30 years ago.

This quote from Minnesota about Iowa is telling...
"(Iowas) have longer, more varied seasons than we do. Their success rates are much higher than ours often double. They harvest a higher percentage of their herd, thereby controlling the herd more effectively. They distribute their hunting pressure more evenly, providing a higher quality hunt. And they produce far more trophy bucks. This is all done in a smaller state, with fewer deer and a fraction of the habitat (than Minnesota)."

Germ

And my point this.

Look at these states and see what they are doing. Location, Location, Location
How's come 50 years ago Iowa sucked? Minn and MI were top dogs, what happen?

Deer mangemnet has more to do with it than location IMO. Lets put MI regs in Iowa, in 5 years it would suck. We have done it before in MI

GMMAT

You answered this question with your article. I answered the first one with what I think to be true.

Iowa doesn't have to worry about population control (it sounds like to me). They have a "healthy" population. Our NCWRC wants and NEEDS deer killed.....or they'd overrun us.