Managing Herds......
01-10-2008, 03:49 PM
#31
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,099
RE: Managing Herds......
ORIGINAL: GregH
See #1 above. (excuse the ebonics 
)
ORIGINAL: BigJ71
Yeah Greg, I see your point and I have seen the results of over population. I agree, we shouldn't just let the deer do as they please. I believe in bag limits to control the overall populations and the restriction on the number of bucks that one person can kill.
Here in Illinois (as you know) a resident can only kill two bucks a year but can kill as many does as they want (archery equipment). Ithink the Illinois DNR is doing a pretty good job to date.
So why am I killing extradoes on the property(s)I hunt??
ORIGINAL: GregH
1) Bucks have a naturally higher mortality rate than does. In time, the buck/doe ratio would be really out of whack causing more stress on the bucks and lesser bucks would be doing moe and more of the breeding.
2) The effects of letting deer self populate would be disasterous to the land. Deer are like rabbits, very prolific. Have you ever seen a totally over browsed area? The food sources would become depleted, the deer would begin to deteriorate and starve and we'd have a real mess on our hands. Possibly something that would take at least a decade to recover from. It could possibly lead to a closed season(s) for a while.
In this day and age with people and developement, deer need to be managed.They need to be managed by people not by themselves. Since we'll be managing them why not do it for the optimum herd?
1) Bucks have a naturally higher mortality rate than does. In time, the buck/doe ratio would be really out of whack causing more stress on the bucks and lesser bucks would be doing moe and more of the breeding.
2) The effects of letting deer self populate would be disasterous to the land. Deer are like rabbits, very prolific. Have you ever seen a totally over browsed area? The food sources would become depleted, the deer would begin to deteriorate and starve and we'd have a real mess on our hands. Possibly something that would take at least a decade to recover from. It could possibly lead to a closed season(s) for a while.
In this day and age with people and developement, deer need to be managed.They need to be managed by people not by themselves. Since we'll be managing them why not do it for the optimum herd?
Here in Illinois (as you know) a resident can only kill two bucks a year but can kill as many does as they want (archery equipment). Ithink the Illinois DNR is doing a pretty good job to date.
So why am I killing extradoes on the property(s)I hunt??
)
My question is, if the states overall plan (buck number restrictions to help offset the mortality rate between the two sexes and overall bag limits to help with overall numbers) is working why do I as an individual need to do more than what the state prescribes? Why can't I just let mother nature do it's thing with what's left?
I can totally see trying to help "Fix what we have damaged" and like I said I'm all for bag limits and such because they (if implemented correctly) do work.
So if they are working in your state why the need to mess with "your herd" why not just let it take it's course?
I don't know...just thinking out loud. I just don't think there would be a damn thing different with the herds I hunt if I had or hadn't killed all those does over the years........it looks the same to me this year as it did 20 years ago...still a crap load of deer!
01-10-2008, 03:57 PM
#32
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RE: Managing Herds......
ORIGINAL: popeandyoungchaser
Big John the states set the bag limits the best way that they see fit to get the population to and maintain the Maximum Sustained Yield or the point on the population bell curve were the yearling body wieghtsare as good as they will get, fown recruitment is good, body sizes are good as well as the trophy potential is good. The seasos are what keep us from driving the whitetail to exticntion.
Big John the states set the bag limits the best way that they see fit to get the population to and maintain the Maximum Sustained Yield or the point on the population bell curve were the yearling body wieghtsare as good as they will get, fown recruitment is good, body sizes are good as well as the trophy potential is good. The seasos are what keep us from driving the whitetail to exticntion.
That's my whole point, if what the state is doing is working, why are we killing off more does in "our herds" instead of letting nature take it's own course?
Why am I killing all these does if the states deer herds are in good shape? Don't get me wrong, I enjoy hunting but sometimes I FEEL like have to take so many does, why can't I just let what happens happen?
01-10-2008, 04:07 PM
#33
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Nashville, Ohio
Posts: 1,109
RE: Managing Herds......
You can let it happen. You as an individual can do that, thats your choice. I was simply saying as a group hunters can't do that because the deer hunting would be @#$%%@ for many years to come.
01-10-2008, 04:16 PM
#34
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RE: Managing Herds......
ORIGINAL: popeandyoungchaser
You can let it happen. You as an individual can do that, thats your choice. I was simply saying as a group hunters can't do that because the deer hunting would be @#$%%@ for many years to come.
You can let it happen. You as an individual can do that, thats your choice. I was simply saying as a group hunters can't do that because the deer hunting would be @#$%%@ for many years to come.
Beyond that is where I'm questioning things. Do I REALLY need to kill more does on the properties I hunt? If I don't and just let nature take it's course could I even tell the difference 10 years from now. It's been about 20 years since I started to kill more does and I honestly don't see any changes in the dynamics of the herds I hunt.
I don't know......
01-10-2008, 04:39 PM
#35
Fork Horn
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location:
Posts: 307
RE: Managing Herds......
Our land in S Alabama in 1994. Over 40 deer each evening on our green fields and average weight 60lbs. Today we see 0 to 5 on average with the average weight closing in on 100lbs. We spent many years shooting every doe with out spots and almost no bucks. Now we have good sized does for the south and several wall hangers in the last 4 years. In the beggining you could stand in the middle of a green field and look at the browse line around the edges and it was several feet of the ground. I think our mild climate prevented a massive die of and istead mother nature was offering a slow starvation route.
01-10-2008, 04:45 PM
#36
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Racine, Wisconsin
Posts: 5,922
RE: Managing Herds......
ORIGINAL: BigJ71
LOLI'm an expert in ebonics
My question is, if the states overall plan (buck number restrictions to help offset the mortality rate between the two sexes and overall bag limits to help with overall numbers) is working why do I as an individual need to do more than what the state prescribes? Why can't I just let mother nature do it's thing with what's left?
I can totally see trying to help "Fix what we have damaged" and like I said I'm all for bag limits and such because they (if implemented correctly) do work.
So if they are working in your state why the need to mess with "your herd" why not just let it take it's course?
I don't know...just thinking out loud. I just don't think there would be a damn thing different with the herds I hunt if I had or hadn't killed all those does over the years........it looks the same to me this year as it did 20 years ago...still a crap load of deer!
ORIGINAL: GregH
See #1 above. (excuse the ebonics )
ORIGINAL: BigJ71
Yeah Greg, I see your point and I have seen the results of over population. I agree, we shouldn't just let the deer do as they please. I believe in bag limits to control the overall populations and the restriction on the number of bucks that one person can kill.
Here in Illinois (as you know) a resident can only kill two bucks a year but can kill as many does as they want (archery equipment). Ithink the Illinois DNR is doing a pretty good job to date.
So why am I killing extradoes on the property(s)I hunt??
ORIGINAL: GregH
1) Bucks have a naturally higher mortality rate than does. In time, the buck/doe ratio would be really out of whack causing more stress on the bucks and lesser bucks would be doing moe and more of the breeding.
2) The effects of letting deer self populate would be disasterous to the land. Deer are like rabbits, very prolific. Have you ever seen a totally over browsed area? The food sources would become depleted, the deer would begin to deteriorate and starve and we'd have a real mess on our hands. Possibly something that would take at least a decade to recover from. It could possibly lead to a closed season(s) for a while.
In this day and age with people and developement, deer need to be managed.They need to be managed by people not by themselves. Since we'll be managing them why not do it for the optimum herd?
1) Bucks have a naturally higher mortality rate than does. In time, the buck/doe ratio would be really out of whack causing more stress on the bucks and lesser bucks would be doing moe and more of the breeding.
2) The effects of letting deer self populate would be disasterous to the land. Deer are like rabbits, very prolific. Have you ever seen a totally over browsed area? The food sources would become depleted, the deer would begin to deteriorate and starve and we'd have a real mess on our hands. Possibly something that would take at least a decade to recover from. It could possibly lead to a closed season(s) for a while.
In this day and age with people and developement, deer need to be managed.They need to be managed by people not by themselves. Since we'll be managing them why not do it for the optimum herd?
Here in Illinois (as you know) a resident can only kill two bucks a year but can kill as many does as they want (archery equipment). Ithink the Illinois DNR is doing a pretty good job to date.
So why am I killing extradoes on the property(s)I hunt??
)
My question is, if the states overall plan (buck number restrictions to help offset the mortality rate between the two sexes and overall bag limits to help with overall numbers) is working why do I as an individual need to do more than what the state prescribes? Why can't I just let mother nature do it's thing with what's left?
I can totally see trying to help "Fix what we have damaged" and like I said I'm all for bag limits and such because they (if implemented correctly) do work.
So if they are working in your state why the need to mess with "your herd" why not just let it take it's course?
I don't know...just thinking out loud. I just don't think there would be a damn thing different with the herds I hunt if I had or hadn't killed all those does over the years........it looks the same to me this year as it did 20 years ago...still a crap load of deer!
Ill. has done an excellent job of managing the deer herd. Especially with how they run their season. Ex. shorter gun seasons, no rifles, two buck limit etc. This has helped keep the buck numbers up. However, there are still a lot of people out there that only shoot bucks. This along with #1 is where the problem starts. By trying to keep the buck/doe ratio 1/1 you'll have less chance of population explosion, more quality food available, more competition between bucks (better breeding) and over all healthier deer.
01-10-2008, 04:48 PM
#37
Fork Horn
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location:
Posts: 307
RE: Managing Herds......
I think gREG hit the nail on the head. The seasons play aHUGE role, in the south you can use a fire stick for over 4 months in most places and you always have "SOME" hunters not all who are meat hunters, but put a basket rack 6pt and 3 does in front of them and guess what? They usually drag the deer out by the horns.
01-10-2008, 05:00 PM
#39
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location:
Posts: 3,465
RE: Managing Herds......
KY has a 2 week rifle season right in the middle of rut. TONS of smokepole time as well as two or three youth rifle weekends. Bow season lasts from first of September to mid to late January. Baiting is allowed[&:]
heck the only thing in our favor is a one buck limit.
heck the only thing in our favor is a one buck limit.
01-10-2008, 05:03 PM
#40
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Michigan/Ohio
Posts: 11,682
RE: Managing Herds......
ORIGINAL: TEmbry15
KY has a 2 week rifle season right in the middle of rut. TONS of smokepole time as well as two or three youth rifle weekends. Bow season lasts from first of September to mid to late January. Baiting is allowed[&:]
heck the only thing in our favor is a one buck limit.
KY has a 2 week rifle season right in the middle of rut. TONS of smokepole time as well as two or three youth rifle weekends. Bow season lasts from first of September to mid to late January. Baiting is allowed[&:]
heck the only thing in our favor is a one buck limit.
And hunter numbers, which help.
I think KY has THE BEST tag system in the Union IMO.