atlasman

Why?? If unreal population numbers and COMPLETELY out of whack buck:doe ratio can produce tons of great bucks and supreme hunting out there then why not elsewhere??

What have I been saying over and over in this thread about Iowa?? Put a million hunters there and it wouldn't be a hunting paradise.

Montana has and does everything the opposite of what QDM preaches and traditional management wisdom tries to sell...........and I have absolutely ZERO doubt in my mind that an average to above average skilled hunter who lived there and got to hunt full seasons would kill a 150" buck or better EVERY year.


Pronghorns???........are you kidding me??......they are like rats out there. Finding a P+Y antelope in Wyoming or Montana is like finding a seagull at the beach.

The sheer numbers of the wildlife out there is incredible.........I don't know how they stop poaching out there. You could easily kill P+Y animals every day just driving up and down the roads and glassing fields. If that was possible out here there would be rifle shots ringing out 24/7.



You won't regret it...........I will tell you one thing. Don't expect the deer out west to be as smart as the ones you hunt in Michigan

Germ

I will give you 700,000 reasons why
Put NY population of hunters in Montana, now it's completely differnet herd to manage. A few more natural predators who are not as selective as hunters are also.

+ Hunters are tad bit more selective than NY or MI hunters. Like you pointed out, they are not shooting the first buck that comes by.
If NY went back to TDM, for sure the population would go up. TDM has proven it can and does that well

I am only guessing to[8D], that NY is a tad bit more populated than Montana, would people of NY put up with a larger herd? I do not know. I herd a great quote.

"Deer bioligist want hunters to kill deer, hunters want to see deer. These two groups will Continue to work against each other."

I don't know what the best answers is, I try to look for a happy medium. I think for MI getting herd numbers in check is the answer. I prefer DNR manangesthe herd, not respond to high number. I feel the response from our DNR have been to drastic. The herd NLP was just hit hard. Hunting in NLP has suffered for it.

After seeing the results of 4 MI QDM CO-OPS of 2000+ acres each I know where I want my area to go. I can tell you there are some long time TDM followers who have had their minds change, Uncle Trigger. In March I am having a meeting to start a CO-OP in Southern MI, I am going to bring HNI a long for the ride.

bawanajim

How many deer per forested square mile will this co-ops goal be?

atlasman

So everything I am seeing you list about why it won't work elsewhere is all about the people........not the deer. I'm not sure if I am following you correctly.........earlier I thought you were saying how great Iowa's management program was and listing other states as prime examples as well........but now you seem to be putting a lot of stock in the low number of hunters.......which is what I said earlier and I thought you didn't agree with.

What I am saying to you (and anyone else who may listen) is that from what I have seen and heard firsthand..........the mantras being chanted about the way deer should be "properly" managedare apparently questionable at best. I know of a few properties in NY thatthe guys are drilling some really great deer on and they all had one thing in common.....nothing was killed for a few years (some as many as 5). This allowed the numbers to swell (both doe and buck) and of course all the deer thatdidn't wander off and get killed became much older and bigger. The out of whack buck:doe ratio did not hurt them at all and they arecertainly not suffering anythingexcept for high taxidermy bills

Montana has a bazillion deer..........buck:doe ratio WAY out of balance.........and yet NONE of thepitfalls preached by QDM or some biologists are anywhere to be seen. The young bucks are obviously involved in the breeding.......and the old boys have got to be running 24/7 during the rut with that much tail to chase.........yet the genetics are not suffering, the young bucks look great, all the deer look healthy and the old bucks are not so overly stressed that they are in danger. It has all theearmarks of a wonderfully healthy herd........something I would think every state would drool over, and every biologist and expert out there would use as a modelto work from. Why they don't is a mystery to me.

Not to mention that these animals are just one of many that are THRIVING under the same conditions. Pronghorn, mule deer, elk, moose, bear, turkey............they have somethinggood going out there, so why all these people seem to want to do the opposite to manage their own herdsjust seems dumb.

BigJ71

No problem....Not really a hijack, it's all still kinda related to what I asked.

Oh, and about your "complaint Department"..........you might want to think about setting up some kinda workout routine for your employees.

peakrut

LOL
You know I HERD a good joke the other day...........nm

Germ

Page 8 I agreed about hunting pressure This is where NY, MI and PA have the biggest issue IMO. Hunter numbers, a lot of guys in the Midwest just do not understand IMO. Iowa deer management is more about the gun season IMO.

Move MI gun season out of the rut, and banned baiting and we have a whole new ball game.
When is NY gun season?

When is Montana Gun season?
How long is it?

If Montana practice Iowa deer managemment, they would still have a pile of deer. YOu seem to forget most DNR are trying to keep deer at capacity or just below it. Was Montana trying to grow their herd?
I don't and have never looked at Montana deer managemment. Plus lots not forget you were on a private 15,000 acre lease ranch. Hell I can show you places just like that here in MI. I know of a few buck only ranches in the NLP.

I am disagreeing there is a more deer under TDM

The question is
What is the best answer for your state, if you think it is TDM, start to lobby the DEC Being about every deer biologist, and the top ones in the country do not agree, good luck.

I tend look at other states that are similar to my own.
PA
NY
WIS
Minn
ILL

I look at other states in the area, you have said it yourself LOCATION. The best locations have a lot of things is common.

Habitat
Food source
deer management
Gun seasons
Lower Hunter numbers

Indiana was not a big buck state until they made a move 5 years ago.
OBR
deer management.
Ever been to a Indiana forum? Most of the guys take deer mangment very serious.

If you think 15,000 private leased ranch has great deer management for your state, get some of those DEC boys out there to take a look

The question is what is best for the deer of NY, and what is best for the hunters?
Good Luck, hey great thing Atlas is if you buy your own land you can manage it how you want!!

Germ

They had it figured out in 1938, LOL

DNR report from MI, 1938

Germ

From 1936

LOL,72 years later and we're still doing the same damn thing[&:]