Managing Herds......
01-11-2008, 05:31 PM
#173
Fork Horn
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location:
Posts: 307
RE: Managing Herds......
I hunt Georgia and Alabama and in I can assure you we have the same population problems as alot of you stating that on here. SEVERAL years ago we started shooting any doe that did not have slpots and with bag limits of 10 does in GA and 2 deer a day in Alabama I can assure you we filled all freezers and ALOT of hunters for the hungry freezers. Our land went from 60 lb does to 100 plus pound does as the norm, the browseline went from 5 feet in the air to almost non exsistant. We now harvest several good deer a year (120) and up and while we see less deer everone still fills their freezer with bigger does and their wall with more antler. This was accomplished on 70 acre tract (GA) and over 1000 acres in (AL). Both ends of the spectrum for land size around here. Nature was going the route of slowly starving the deer due to our mild winters we did not expierence a massive die off. I have no dought we changed (helped) our herd and at the same time made hunting more enjoyable. We do not see the number of deer we once saw by far but the excitment of every deer being a possible wallhanger as opposed to another rib showing speciman makes what we do even better. Alot of guys say I want to shoot what I want and do not care about horns but let 6 does and a basket rack 8pt walk out and guess what, the deer is drug out of the woods by the horns more than not.
Atlas
I am asking this question with your opinion in mind and not to start an argument, if you let all those bucks walkover 2 yearsthen you will have more mature deer but at the same time how can we assume that they will have better headgear when there are that many more mouths to feed. If we add all those bucks to the herd then competition for food will be greater and each deer will eat less (nutrition for antlers on bucks, and body wait on does) Would you agree with this assesment at all?
Atlas
I am asking this question with your opinion in mind and not to start an argument, if you let all those bucks walkover 2 yearsthen you will have more mature deer but at the same time how can we assume that they will have better headgear when there are that many more mouths to feed. If we add all those bucks to the herd then competition for food will be greater and each deer will eat less (nutrition for antlers on bucks, and body wait on does) Would you agree with this assesment at all?
01-11-2008, 05:43 PM
#174
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location:
Posts: 3,465
RE: Managing Herds......
ORIGINAL: atlasman
That's what I like least about AR's............one group forcing their beliefs on others.
ORIGINAL: rybohunter
it is SLOWLY changing some people's approach.
it is SLOWLY changing some people's approach.
That's what I like least about AR's............one group forcing their beliefs on others.
01-11-2008, 06:02 PM
#175
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 4,679
RE: Managing Herds......
ORIGINAL: Rick James
For the guys that don't think harvesting does and a closer balance will create more and bigger bucks, can you explain why I saw the following on my property? I posted this on another thread. I'm really curious to know what people think about this, and if maybe it's due to some sort of outside influence that I'm not seeing or thinking of that has caused this?
For the guys that don't think harvesting does and a closer balance will create more and bigger bucks, can you explain why I saw the following on my property? I posted this on another thread. I'm really curious to know what people think about this, and if maybe it's due to some sort of outside influence that I'm not seeing or thinking of that has caused this?
In 2005, I hunted a total of approx 96 hours on stand at my place in PA. In that timeframe I saw (fawns removed from the numbers)eleven different 1.5+ y/o does, and three different1.5+ y/o bucks. We killed 3 does and no bucks on the property that year. I saw one animal that may have been 2.5 years old, the other bucks were 1.5.
In 2006, I hunted a total of approx 96 hours on stand at my place in PA. In that timefram I saw (fawns again removed from the numbers) seven different 1.5+ year does, and five different 1.5+ y/o bucks. We killed 3 does, and 1 buck on the property. 2 of the bucks were probably 2.5, the rest were 1.5. There was sign of other buckswe did not see that were probably 3.5+, no evidence though.
In 2007, I hunted a total of approx 88 hours on stand at my place in PA. in that timeframe I saw (fawns removed from the numbers) seven different 1.5+ year old does, andeight different 1.5+ year old bucks. We killed 3 does and 1 buck on the property. 4 of the eight different bucks were 2.5 y/o deer @ 100" or better, and 2 of those 4 older deer were at least 3.5+. Previously we had only averaged maybe 1 deer per season at best sighted at 100" or better.
In 2006, I hunted a total of approx 96 hours on stand at my place in PA. In that timefram I saw (fawns again removed from the numbers) seven different 1.5+ year does, and five different 1.5+ y/o bucks. We killed 3 does, and 1 buck on the property. 2 of the bucks were probably 2.5, the rest were 1.5. There was sign of other buckswe did not see that were probably 3.5+, no evidence though.
In 2007, I hunted a total of approx 88 hours on stand at my place in PA. in that timeframe I saw (fawns removed from the numbers) seven different 1.5+ year old does, andeight different 1.5+ year old bucks. We killed 3 does and 1 buck on the property. 4 of the eight different bucks were 2.5 y/o deer @ 100" or better, and 2 of those 4 older deer were at least 3.5+. Previously we had only averaged maybe 1 deer per season at best sighted at 100" or better.
No one has a response to this? We have a lot of theory on this thread, but I've actually practiced something here showing that harvesting does seems to have directly affected things in a positive manner on my property. Iam very open to hearing if there are opinions on why I've seen the results I have, and why the harvesting of does hasn't helped here to produce these results.
I'm not saying that harvesting these does was the only reason I've seen what I've seen here, but I do think it was one of the key ingredients to our results in 3 short years. If you think otherwise though and have a good explanation as to why the harvesting of does didn't help with these results, I'm open to hearing why..........as long as it's in a constructive manner.
01-11-2008, 06:22 PM
#177
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 4,679
RE: Managing Herds......
ORIGINAL: bawanajim
Rick have you ever found a deer starved to death in your area? How about a browse line? Do you feel your food plots are making a difference?
Rick have you ever found a deer starved to death in your area? How about a browse line? Do you feel your food plots are making a difference?
The other thing in my opinion that has contributed to these results is that we have made room in the area for more deer to relocate to this place and fill that new higher carrying capacity, and over the course of 3x years of shooting does and passing bucks.......we have a LOT of resident bucks now. Not just bucks that come through in a small window of the year looking for ladies.......we see them year round now.
I think we are at a point now where we need to start focusing on shooting bucks/does at a 1/1 ratio, but I really honestly think that the harvest of does has helped considerably to get it where it is now.
It's funny, because my main hunting partner Dan did the same thing at his property in central NY that I hunt as much as my place, and has seen the same results as I have. It took him 7 years or so though as compared to my 3, and I believe this is because he didnt' do a logging project like I did..........his plan only involved plots, doe harvest, and passing the smaller bucks. Our ratio and average sightings of 3.5+ year old bucks per hour on stand are very similar now. I believe if he would have done a more comprehensive project of habitat improvement including some logging to open things up a bit, he would have seen these results sooner.
Again, if someone thinks they have good thoughts on why would have seen better results here without shooting the does I'm open to hearing why, but as I see it now it was a key element.
01-11-2008, 06:26 PM
#178
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Michigan/Ohio
Posts: 11,682
RE: Managing Herds......
ORIGINAL: Rick James
No one has a response to this? We have a lot of theory on this thread, but I've actually practiced something here showing that harvesting does seems to have directly affected things in a positive manner on my property. Iam very open to hearing if there are opinions on why I've seen the results I have, and why the harvesting of does hasn't helped here to produce these results.
I'm not saying that harvesting these does was the only reason I've seen what I've seen here, but I do think it was one of the key ingredients to our results in 3 short years. If you think otherwise though and have a good explanation as to why the harvesting of does didn't help with these results, I'm open to hearing why..........as long as it's in a constructive manner.
ORIGINAL: Rick James
For the guys that don't think harvesting does and a closer balance will create more and bigger bucks, can you explain why I saw the following on my property? I posted this on another thread. I'm really curious to know what people think about this, and if maybe it's due to some sort of outside influence that I'm not seeing or thinking of that has caused this?
For the guys that don't think harvesting does and a closer balance will create more and bigger bucks, can you explain why I saw the following on my property? I posted this on another thread. I'm really curious to know what people think about this, and if maybe it's due to some sort of outside influence that I'm not seeing or thinking of that has caused this?
In 2005, I hunted a total of approx 96 hours on stand at my place in PA. In that timeframe I saw (fawns removed from the numbers)eleven different 1.5+ y/o does, and three different1.5+ y/o bucks. We killed 3 does and no bucks on the property that year. I saw one animal that may have been 2.5 years old, the other bucks were 1.5.
In 2006, I hunted a total of approx 96 hours on stand at my place in PA. In that timefram I saw (fawns again removed from the numbers) seven different 1.5+ year does, and five different 1.5+ y/o bucks. We killed 3 does, and 1 buck on the property. 2 of the bucks were probably 2.5, the rest were 1.5. There was sign of other buckswe did not see that were probably 3.5+, no evidence though.
In 2007, I hunted a total of approx 88 hours on stand at my place in PA. in that timeframe I saw (fawns removed from the numbers) seven different 1.5+ year old does, andeight different 1.5+ year old bucks. We killed 3 does and 1 buck on the property. 4 of the eight different bucks were 2.5 y/o deer @ 100" or better, and 2 of those 4 older deer were at least 3.5+. Previously we had only averaged maybe 1 deer per season at best sighted at 100" or better.
In 2006, I hunted a total of approx 96 hours on stand at my place in PA. In that timefram I saw (fawns again removed from the numbers) seven different 1.5+ year does, and five different 1.5+ y/o bucks. We killed 3 does, and 1 buck on the property. 2 of the bucks were probably 2.5, the rest were 1.5. There was sign of other buckswe did not see that were probably 3.5+, no evidence though.
In 2007, I hunted a total of approx 88 hours on stand at my place in PA. in that timeframe I saw (fawns removed from the numbers) seven different 1.5+ year old does, andeight different 1.5+ year old bucks. We killed 3 does and 1 buck on the property. 4 of the eight different bucks were 2.5 y/o deer @ 100" or better, and 2 of those 4 older deer were at least 3.5+. Previously we had only averaged maybe 1 deer per season at best sighted at 100" or better.
No one has a response to this? We have a lot of theory on this thread, but I've actually practiced something here showing that harvesting does seems to have directly affected things in a positive manner on my property. Iam very open to hearing if there are opinions on why I've seen the results I have, and why the harvesting of does hasn't helped here to produce these results.
I'm not saying that harvesting these does was the only reason I've seen what I've seen here, but I do think it was one of the key ingredients to our results in 3 short years. If you think otherwise though and have a good explanation as to why the harvesting of does didn't help with these results, I'm open to hearing why..........as long as it's in a constructive manner.
01-11-2008, 06:28 PM
#179
Fork Horn
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location:
Posts: 307
RE: Managing Herds......
I typed a long response and the message did not go through so here are the numbers and this goes back to the 70's before my time
before 1999 avg doe 60lbs avg buck 100 to 110 small racks (occasionally a nice deer)
1999 started shooting every doe that moved as long as no spots and no buck was shot unless it was mounted
2007 avg doe over 100 lbs and several deer over 120" on the ground
When we started this the browse line was 5 foot of the ground, apple trees did not produce except up high where the deer could not eat the buds, food plots eaten to the dirt like we had plowed them under, etc.
Now we have alot of meat on the does, and you get excited at the fact that the next buck could be one for the wall. This happened in S Alabama with 2 deer a day bag limits and the definition of a brown and down area. Deer dogs are still ran all around us as well.
Matt I find your information SPOT ON and would like to see anyone who has kept these types of records that foundanything other than the desired results.
before 1999 avg doe 60lbs avg buck 100 to 110 small racks (occasionally a nice deer)
1999 started shooting every doe that moved as long as no spots and no buck was shot unless it was mounted
2007 avg doe over 100 lbs and several deer over 120" on the ground
When we started this the browse line was 5 foot of the ground, apple trees did not produce except up high where the deer could not eat the buds, food plots eaten to the dirt like we had plowed them under, etc.
Now we have alot of meat on the does, and you get excited at the fact that the next buck could be one for the wall. This happened in S Alabama with 2 deer a day bag limits and the definition of a brown and down area. Deer dogs are still ran all around us as well.
Matt I find your information SPOT ON and would like to see anyone who has kept these types of records that foundanything other than the desired results.
01-11-2008, 06:33 PM
#180
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 8,167
RE: Managing Herds......
Thats great ,I just wish more people would get off their butts and into the woods this time of year. Most guys miss this best time of year to cut unproductive trees down. In the north east most maple is fast growing and once reaching pole stage is worthless to deer.Winter cutting creates browse now and lets sun light to the ground in the spring.
I see habitat improvement as more beneficial than herd reduction in my area.
Good luck with your land, how far are you from Bear Lake ,Panama area?
I see habitat improvement as more beneficial than herd reduction in my area.
Good luck with your land, how far are you from Bear Lake ,Panama area?