Managing Herds......
01-11-2008, 10:41 AM
#131
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Southern MD
Posts: 2,520
RE: Managing Herds......
ORIGINAL: Charlie P
If we do that then and set our kill goals for that ratio it doesn't matter if you shoot a BB,6pt or 4.5 yr old 10 pt right?
If we do that then and set our kill goals for that ratio it doesn't matter if you shoot a BB,6pt or 4.5 yr old 10 pt right?
01-11-2008, 10:43 AM
#132
Site Buck Guru
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Racine, Wisconsin
Posts: 5,922
RE: Managing Herds......
ORIGINAL: atlasman
greg,
I certainly didn't mean to imply these guys don't know what they are talkingabout...........I agree with a lot of what they say andyes I read these publications. I just don't believe everything I read just because it is written. I take thatinfo and combine it with what I see in thefield and make my own opinions. I agree with almost NOTHING the NYSDEC spews out every year and I know tons of guys that just soak it inand accept it as fact no matter how much their eyes tell them differently.
I traveled to a couple different states thisyear and my eyes were really opened.....combine that with what I have seen a couple different groups in NY do and I justfind a lot of fault with some of the logic being pushed as fact.
Ithink these guys are all VERYsmart.................I also thinkwe haveyet to find a state run hunting program that has hunters as it's #1 priority. Too many other factors in this game for me to be that naive.
ORIGINAL: GregH
Atlas,
I don't know what you do for a living but I know that you know all states don't do the same thing because they want to be different or they have their own agenda.
I have no doubt that you can interpret studies, but, have you read any of the ones I've mentioned?
I've followed these guys for years and tend to believe what they are saying.
Atlas,
I don't know what you do for a living but I know that you know all states don't do the same thing because they want to be different or they have their own agenda.
I have no doubt that you can interpret studies, but, have you read any of the ones I've mentioned?
I've followed these guys for years and tend to believe what they are saying.
greg,
I certainly didn't mean to imply these guys don't know what they are talkingabout...........I agree with a lot of what they say andyes I read these publications. I just don't believe everything I read just because it is written. I take thatinfo and combine it with what I see in thefield and make my own opinions. I agree with almost NOTHING the NYSDEC spews out every year and I know tons of guys that just soak it inand accept it as fact no matter how much their eyes tell them differently.
I traveled to a couple different states thisyear and my eyes were really opened.....combine that with what I have seen a couple different groups in NY do and I justfind a lot of fault with some of the logic being pushed as fact.
Ithink these guys are all VERYsmart.................I also thinkwe haveyet to find a state run hunting program that has hunters as it's #1 priority. Too many other factors in this game for me to be that naive.
01-11-2008, 10:43 AM
#133
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Southern MD
Posts: 2,520
RE: Managing Herds......
ORIGINAL: GregH
Well, theoretically, the bumble bee is not supposed to be able to fly either.
I've hunted in parts of Wis where the ratio was that out of whack.
ORIGINAL: brucelanthier
There was an article in deer and deerhunting that indicated that ratios like that cannot happen. Here is a thread on another forum that discusses it.
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=215254
ORIGINAL: GregH
When it gets to 470,000 does and 30,000 bucks, then things are out of hand. (about 15/1 ratio).
When it gets to 470,000 does and 30,000 bucks, then things are out of hand. (about 15/1 ratio).
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=215254
I've hunted in parts of Wis where the ratio was that out of whack.
01-11-2008, 10:45 AM
#134
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Michigan/Ohio
Posts: 11,682
RE: Managing Herds......
ORIGINAL: atlasman
Shoot a young buck and you lose just one deer
Shoota mature doe and youlosemany bucks for the future
I have a problem seeing the first as more tragic then the second.
ORIGINAL: Germ
1.Protect Young bucks
2.shoot does(mature) where needed
1.Protect Young bucks
2.shoot does(mature) where needed
Shoota mature doe and youlosemany bucks for the future
I have a problem seeing the first as more tragic then the second.
If your looking for a high population of deer and you do not care about balance TDMis the way to go.
System based on Quanity, makes it eaiser for hunters to kill deer IMO
01-11-2008, 10:50 AM
#135
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,137
RE: Managing Herds......
If you want a particular "age structure" then it would matter which bucks you killed.
Your killing less bucks more will get older. The hunter would be less likely to shoot young deer if he knew a BB would be considered a buck.
He might not shoot that 4 pt in bow season knowing he wouldn't be able to shoot abuck during gun, but if he wanted to he could.
01-11-2008, 10:54 AM
#136
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 8,167
RE: Managing Herds......
ORIGINAL: rybohunter
Yes. And the reason PA whacked so many does is becuase much of it is poor habitat. Some places still have good habitat, but from a state level it is very difficult to break things down that tiny.
ORIGINAL: bawanajim
I'll go along with whacking the right number of does,but isn't it habitat that should determine that number?
I'll go along with whacking the right number of does,but isn't it habitat that should determine that number?
My area of the state is capable of supporting many more deer than are currently here and with private property owners stopping the slaughter it will again one day.
I truly believe better habitat is the solution, deer elimination is not.
01-11-2008, 10:57 AM
#137
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Mich
Posts: 1,090
RE: Managing Herds......
Mich is a trainwreak when it comes to this!! Our state Gov only cares about $$$ Not deer mangment.The insurance companys have more say then us hunters.We need to get to a one buck tag and or Doe first then you get your buck tag.Germ has been spot on IMO aleast in our case(Mich) I cant say what goes on in other states. Some day I hope Mich hunters pull together and demand that something be done.But thats a problem as well.We only worry about ourselves and not whats best for all.SHAME
01-11-2008, 10:59 AM
#138
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 4,668
RE: Managing Herds......
ORIGINAL: Germ
TDM(traditional deer managment)
If your looking for a high population of deer and you do not care about balance TDMis the way to go.
System based on Quanity, makes it eaiser for hunters to kill deer IMO
TDM(traditional deer managment)
If your looking for a high population of deer and you do not care about balance TDMis the way to go.
System based on Quanity, makes it eaiser for hunters to kill deer IMO
I do want to see our deer population higher.......I don't see anything wrong with that. How the heck am I supposed to get a kid interested in hunting when you can sit for a week straight and not see a deer??
I don't care about "balance"........I think that is a man made catch phrase used to push other agendas. I have seen first hand areas that would make "balance" chanters eyes bug out........and the hunting there is OUTSTANDING.
01-11-2008, 11:00 AM
#139
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,137
RE: Managing Herds......
I have seen very little with my own eyes that tells me ratios should be used as aguideline or recipe for success. [align=right]
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01-11-2008, 11:03 AM
#140
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 4,679
RE: Managing Herds......
For the guys that don't think harvesting does and a closer balance will create more and bigger bucks, can you explain why I saw the following on my property? I posted this on another thread. I'm really curious to know what people think about this, and if maybe it's due to some sort of outside influence that I'm not seeing or thinking of that has caused this?
In 2005, I hunted a total of approx 96 hours on stand at my place in PA. In that timeframe I saw (fawns removed from the numbers)eleven different 1.5+ y/o does, and three different1.5+ y/o bucks. We killed 3 does and no bucks on the property that year. I saw one animal that may have been 2.5 years old, the other bucks were 1.5.
In 2006, I hunted a total of approx 96 hours on stand at my place in PA. In that timefram I saw (fawns again removed from the numbers) seven different 1.5+ year does, and five different 1.5+ y/o bucks. We killed 3 does, and 1 buck on the property. 2 of the bucks were probably 2.5, the rest were 1.5. There was sign of other buckswe did not see that were probably 3.5+, no evidence though.
In 2007, I hunted a total of approx 88 hours on stand at my place in PA. in that timeframe I saw (fawns removed from the numbers) seven different 1.5+ year old does, andeight different 1.5+ year old bucks. We killed 3 does and 1 buck on the property. 4 of the eight different bucks were 2.5 y/o deer @ 100" or better, and 2 of those 4 older deer were at least 3.5+. Previously we had only averaged maybe 1 deer per season at best sighted at 100" or better.
In 2006, I hunted a total of approx 96 hours on stand at my place in PA. In that timefram I saw (fawns again removed from the numbers) seven different 1.5+ year does, and five different 1.5+ y/o bucks. We killed 3 does, and 1 buck on the property. 2 of the bucks were probably 2.5, the rest were 1.5. There was sign of other buckswe did not see that were probably 3.5+, no evidence though.
In 2007, I hunted a total of approx 88 hours on stand at my place in PA. in that timeframe I saw (fawns removed from the numbers) seven different 1.5+ year old does, andeight different 1.5+ year old bucks. We killed 3 does and 1 buck on the property. 4 of the eight different bucks were 2.5 y/o deer @ 100" or better, and 2 of those 4 older deer were at least 3.5+. Previously we had only averaged maybe 1 deer per season at best sighted at 100" or better.