Hoytail Hunter

I don't get too much PC time so I'm late to even my own threads but...

There has to be a line. Just because there's no clear cut way to draw it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A good hunter is a good hunter but a better hunter is a better hunter. All the while there is still someone better than both of those two.

I think the reason why some guys have gotten offendedover what was said with regard to the "location" issueis because theyhave been grouped withother hunters that they might feel they are better hunters than. I certainly hopenobody thinksfor a minute that just because someone has buckled down, studied deer, and bowhunted hardcore for a few seasons means that they have what it takes to go toe to toe with the vets? Guys like GregH, Rob/PA Bowyer, andShed33probably belong in the same class. The rest of us should just hope to learn something.There's no replacement for displacement.(make it apply)

In 10 years when Ibecome a "good" hunter, I will still not be where these guysare now.All I'm saying to everyone is always remain humble because an old pro canusually serve a hotshot his own butt on a platter, irregardless of the LOCATION. By the same token, that old pro should do the same because a big buck can do the same thing to him.

MichaelP

I believe consistently taking P&Y class deer equals hunter ability, reference back to the "are you jeoulous of a first timer scoring a big buck thread". That is a fact and it happens every year where a newbie smokes a big boy. Now show me a hunter with several P&Y deer and I will assure you hunter ability had something to do with it. I know you need the luck factor but I firmly believe that as your number of big deer killed go up your luck factor (while still existing) is not as heavily relied on.

WV Hunter

I don't think someone takingone good deer, or even a few can really determine ablility. Heck, severalherehave admitted to not being highly skilled, yet have taken P&Y bucks in their relatively short careers. YES, skill certainly plays a big part, and more skill will equal more and bigger bucks. However, location has ALOT to do with it as well. I have a good friend....we hunted together for years, and were probably equally skilled at that time. Neither of us ever killed a P&Y, biggest at that time being maybe 90". He moved away and into a "big buck state" and proceeded to kill 6 P&Y bucks in his first 6yrs, all net 125 - 130. Is he a good hunter, yep. Did his skill make the difference? I doubt it. Admitedly he sees a couple dozen P&Y bucks each season now....and had probably been lucky to have ever seen one prior to living there. Don't get me wrong....skill is skill. Taking the best bucks in the area you are in, is a true testimony to that ability -- NOT whether you have taken a P&Y or not.

MichaelP

I give you this example WV, I hunt in Georgia and Alabama not exactly the big buck capitols of the world, more like the brown and down capitals. I have taken a few P&Y deer with 2 being pursued to the ends of the earth and a couple by just being there when they showed up (RUT) with no idea they were on the property. Now my uncle has killed several deer that go well over P&Y and a couple more gun kills that score over P&Y standards. He is the most consistant hunter that I may ever have the privalage to ever hunt with. We hunt in areas where the expected antler size is around that 100 to 110 mark but he still manages to kill deer bigger than most in our area have ever seen. I can assure you this has to do strictly with his ability to find where big deer live, and again that horseshoe up his arse helps from time to time. We hunt together (same land) about 95% of the time and when we scout a new area I sometimes ask him why on God's earth do you want to hang a stand here??? I will go on to my pretty oak hollow or the apple orchard and I'll be danged if I do not get that text message yearly of him saying I am getting a little to old to drag this big boy out would you mind climbing down and helping me, you ain't seeing deer anyways. It actually made me chuckle writing it cause I can hear him now. I am also in 100% agreement with you that some of the best woodsman out there may never kill a P&Y deer. P&Y is just a number anyway, what is really the difference between a 124 7/8" deer and a 125? And in all actuality the 124" deer could be much bigger but score less due to deductions.

Michael

WV Hunter

Absolutely, and I don't disagree. Skill trumps luck every time, regardless of location. But I agree that just because your rack scores over 125, it surely doesn't mean that you are automatically good. If you hunt an area that has an abundance of deer over 125, it doesn't take near the amount of skill to harvest one. If they are 1 in 100....and you consistently tag one, I want to know what you know. Antler size is all relative....if a 3-4yr old buck goes 100" to 110" like many of the folks that hunt,and a 2yr old in other areas goes 120-130....its easy to see how size doesn't directly correlate to skill or ability. A 110" in some areas is probably equal to a 140" in many other areas. Killing a P&Y in some areas is probably equal to killing a B&C in other areas....BUT who gets more credit? Its ALWAYS the guy with the bigger score, unfortunately.

Its kinda like the credit scoring system in finance....it doesn't take into account income or assets. You could have$1,000,000 in the bank, and make $50k/mo....but if your credit score is 580....you are treated like dirt.

WV Hunter

BTW.....my credit score is 800, and I still can't kill big deer [8D] LOL

MichaelP

We are in 100% agreement, especially on the 125" mark determining the quality of the deer and or the hunter. I laugh at some of these hunting shows (and I watch and love most of them) when they shoot that cull buck because he is 6 yrs old and "ONLY" scores 143 as an 8pt. That deer is every bit as mature as the 6yr old 170 they kill later on in the hunt they just discredit the deer because of inches of horn.

GMMAT

Read the original question.....and my original response. There is NO line of delineation of "goodhunter" ....BASED ON how many P&Y bucks one has shot vs. another. A good hunter is a good hunter. Period.

Case in point. How many P&Y bucks does Rob claim credit to? Is he any less a "hunter"?

You proved my point.

You can take the world's most prolific fly fisherman.....with years and years of experience and tactics.....and stick him in the mtn. streams of NC......and how many speckled trout do you think he'll catch in a season?

atlasman

I've hunted in NY for 20 years and never even laid eyes on a P+Y deer let alone kill one.........3 days into an out of state hunt this year I had one on the ground......I don't think I am any different or "better"because of that. I have every bit of confidence in my ability to kill a good example of what is out there.........the key being where "there" is.

Hoytail Hunter

Well, if you want to look at the original question(s) there are actually two- the one in the post title... "Does taking a P&Y equal hunter ability?" -and-

"how do you define hunter ability and skill from state to state?"

...then you didn't answer either of them directly. You answered a question you drafted or rearranged in your own head. At any rate, I'd still like those questionsanswered if you have answers but know that answering them now doesn't help the discussion that has come to be. It's since evolved.

What I want to adress nowis the belittling underlying insinuation attached to the "LOCATION" argument that must in some way be felt by guys in P&Y rich environmentswho've worked their butts off for decades to get the big bucksonly to be told by admittedly waaay less experienced hunters that the habitat bears most credit. Do you not see how insulting this must be to a vet?

How do you know skill sets are congruent? Blanket statementsareprobably what piss people off most with regard to this sort of topic. (jfyi I'm affected but not offended by this particular blanket statement 'cause I'mnot a "top end" hunter) You have to realize that when you say stuff like this,you offendhalf of the vets on here and everywhere. People take pride in what they do and their hard earned experience. Whether is holds true or not, when you say that you can put any good hunter of your choice in their woods and he'll produce just the same or better,(yes that is what you meant, re-read the above quote if you have to) it automatically negates some of their skill and experience.It's why these types of threads usually go pages on end. Step back and look, that is what basically happened in the other thread(s).

Skill sets may be congruent but there's no way for you or I to know that. Ifa rookie-ish huntertold youthathe'd bet on it thathe could kill as many if not more deer on your property than you because 1)your property is about the equivalent of a deer farmcoupledwith 2)thefact that you've had one kajillion sits this year in addition to 3)you're stillrelatively new to bowhunting...your pride would be hurt too. I don't remember where you said it but you did say that you don't like people telling you what's in your woods. It goes both ways so don't tell them you can put someone else in their woods and produce the same or better. They don't know just as you don't know.

Anyone can do or say anything they want I suppose but I think I'll hold back on assessingother people'sskills considering I only have an inkling of their experience and skill. Adopt the same if you see fit.