quiksilver

Todd - you suggested that I try it under "real world" conditions... Well, I did. Extensively. I played with this bow with every conceivable arrow/weight/speed setup imaginable - and I documented everything. Fact is: If you understand what that simple ballistics calculator is telling you - it is dangerously close to the real world results.

Even after the arrow slows down, and the sight line comes into play - it's close. And that's what I'm getting at. The reason it's close - is Newton's Law of Falling Bodies. When we're talking about an arrow that's only in flight for a fraction of a second...the "real world" factors of wind drag, altitude, pressure, rain, fog- they really don't have much time to affect the flight. It's just too fast. It's not in a vacuum, but it might as well be.

TFOX

You tested what the miss distance is at 40 yards for 2 arrows that weigh 100 grains difference.

This is really all a bowhunter should concern himself with unless they use 1 pin and then if you understand the actuall trajectory and setup the pin for the peak,the difference is still minimal and most 1 pin users don't shoot 40 yards.


How much will you MISS if you misjudge by 3-4 yards with both?


AND,that is 40 yards,not exactly a common distance for bowhunters.


I am not saying there isn't a difference,all I am saying is that most are completely clueless to how LITTLE of an advantage the speed is and they usually cost themselves MORE than they gain.

Rick James

The below graphs show the impact points for the same bow, same arrow, and different speeds of 275fps, and 325fps..........a 50fps difference. These are assuming a 40 yard yardage guess, and an actual 45 yard target distance. Both graphs show the impact points of both speeds, but I included both so that Quick could see the actual drop numbers between the two.

With the 50fps difference and no other outside influences impact points are different by 1.55". This was calculated changing nothing with the setup other than arrow speed.....no fudging arrow diameters or fletching, etc. This was done in OnTarget2, the software used by more professional archers for making sight tapes and probably used to obtain more national titles and world records than anything out there. [8D]

TFOX

If I understand correctly,you only changed the arrow speed so the source would have to change meaning you would have to shoot a speed bow and compare it to a slow bow with the same arrow.Or crank the poundage up or down.


For most hunters,we just change the arrow to change speeds and the difference would be even less than what Matt is showing.

Basically what this means is you still have to KNOW the yardage,a miss is a miss.


Oh, and Matt,Perry(Archers Advantage)probably has a few world records and national titles as well.


But,they are both great programs,I am actually thinking about investing in the OT2 myself.

quiksilver

Rick James- I couldn't help but notice that you were using the 40 yard estimate on a 45 yard target - and you got over 1.5" of difference. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. The ballistics calculator that I useshows the same thing:

-5"lowat 45 yds, using the 40 yard pin at 275 fps
-3.5" low at 45, using the 40 yard pin at 325 fps
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a 1.5" difference.

Go look for yourself. The cheapo freebie online ballistics formula spit out the same numbers as your archerysoftware program (because it uses the same basic physics formula).

Now: Go back in and enter the same data that I did - recreate my table. You'll seesimilar resultsto thoseI got. I'm not makingstuff up out of thin air - and the results don't lie. I know some of those drop numbers seem high, but go outside and shoot a 50 yard target with your 20 yard mark and see where your arrow hits. Have your metal detector handy.

The differences in trajectory (between fast and slow)become increasinglyamplified as you get further away from the zero.

Again, my chart illustrates that. Itshows a ZERO at 20 yards with a single pin(not 40) - just to show how a single-pin will hit at various speeds. You're either not understanding what the graph represents (not likely), or you're just trying to twist the numbers to show me that a slow bowdoesn'tmake as much difference as my graph would lead one tobelieve(likely).

...and yes, Todd. I stood on the range and shot every stake (10-50) with my 20 yard pin centered in the bullseyewith arrows moving at various speeds (up to 370) - and I documented the point of impact. That ballistics table damn near hit it right on the nose.

I hunt with one pin, and leave it locked at the 20 yard mark. If I'm taking a 40 yard shot, I use these very tests (confirmed by my real-world results)to know where to hold.


**Also- note RJ's illustrationswith the two points of impact. A 5-yard misjudge at 45 yards with a bow shooting 275 takes you just outside the kill and results in a long, sad tracking job. Meanwhile, a 5-yard misjudge at 45 yards with a bow going 325 = low vital lung hit. Dead deer.**

That's the crux of it. That's what 50 feet gains you, if you can get it.

TFOX

50 fps is alot and takes alot to get it,most can't even come close and like I said,50 fps out of the same bow using different arrow weights is LESS of a difference than the chart shows.If changing poundage,then the difference is more because you are increasing the stored energy which in effect changes the momentum and ke by a much higher percentage margin.


If you are using 1 pin,you should make it around a 25-27 yard pin(depends on setup)and it will be much more accurate for you at most hunting distances out to 40,that was what I was trying to say about 1 pin users.


Then,that speed isn't nearly as much of a factor.


Trajectory charts are awesome for 1 pin users and you don't have to get nearly as much speed as you thinkyou need.


Most people would think that a 5 yard miss at 40 yards with 50 fps difference would be 4-5(or more)inches.Rick's picshows that not to be true.

archer58

T,
I ran 280fps(for comparison)on "On-Target" and the chart quicksilver posted is correct.Using a 20 yrd. pin.

Your trajectory chartfor 40 yrds. @257fps.also matches what On-target shows , but you're shooting a 40yrd pin.

Both of you are correct , you're justlooking at it from 2 different prespectives.

TFOX

I just glanced at the chart and saw the +2.8 at 10 yards for me and really don't find that to be correct for me,after that,I really didn't study it.



Peep site height has alot to do with point of impact at that distance.


My point about 1 pin users is to learn actuall trajectory and worry less about the total drop to best setup a hunting bow with 1 pin.


I personally would never use less than 2 pins.I would set them up to be at the top of the kill and bottom of the kill out to 32-33 yards and never worry about speed or distance.Basically,have a 23 yard pin and a 33 yard pin.Place both on the vitals andjust shoot.


Use a rangefinder for longer shots and hold a little high with both,this would be an extremely effective hunting setup but I use 4 pins and shoot accordingly.

quiksilver

Well fellas, it's like this: The numbers in that chart are right on. I know it. I've confirmed them in real life, and they match the OnTarget data within fractions of an inch. It's not like I pulled them out of a hat, or called Miss Cleo orIM'ed some Haitian Voodoo Sorceress Prostituteto get them. This is pure Newtonian physics confirmed by real-life testing.

If you think I'm crazy, look over the chart again and try to figure out what it's telling you. Read and understand. If you're seeing numbers that look out of line, think it over and double-check yourself. Think about how your arrow's trajectory will look in relation to your line of sight through the peep. This IS complicated stuff, so keep that in mind. Run the numbers for your own setup and get an understanding of what your real capabilities (and margins for error) REALLY are.
__________________________________________________ _____________________________

Just to give an example of how you can use this tool to gain an understanding of YOUR bow's trajectory, I'll showyou guys the results formy hunting setup (Zero at 23 yds):

YARDAGE 10 23 30 40 50
350 FPS +1.70-3.4 -10 -20

TFOX

Just for the heck of it.

Set the "0" at 27 yardsat 310 fps.