Ethics question - Tagging deer
10-10-2007, 09:34 AM
#51
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 8,167
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
ORIGINAL: HAZCON7
In my humble opinion, not just to jump on you Jeff, but if you weren't willing to "get all your neighbors and all their dogs in there" to find ANY deer that you just killed, then you ARE less of a hunter!
In my humble opinion, not just to jump on you Jeff, but if you weren't willing to "get all your neighbors and all their dogs in there" to find ANY deer that you just killed, then you ARE less of a hunter!
The last thing that should be on your mind isthat you might screw up some future hunts by sweeping the woods searching for a deer that is already hit.
10-10-2007, 09:51 AM
#53
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Hughesville, PA USA
Posts: 18,322
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
Okay, I didn't read them all and it could have been answered....
I pose this question then to the original thread/doe in question. You didn't find her and deep in your heart you think she's dead. Being a good guy you "tag" it and count it. What if you see her again, ID her with the injury, do you call and get your tag back? I doubt that's feasible nor do I find it feasible to tag an animal you cannot confirm as deceased.
I applaud your wanting to do the right thing but what would that be if the animal is still walking?
Okay, I'm out.
I pose this question then to the original thread/doe in question. You didn't find her and deep in your heart you think she's dead. Being a good guy you "tag" it and count it. What if you see her again, ID her with the injury, do you call and get your tag back? I doubt that's feasible nor do I find it feasible to tag an animal you cannot confirm as deceased.
I applaud your wanting to do the right thing but what would that be if the animal is still walking?
Okay, I'm out.
10-10-2007, 09:52 AM
#54
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,425
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
Let's say you go dove hunting, limit is 12....You shoot one, looks like it went down...Can't find it...This bird is not "in the bag", you don't carry it out, don't have it in your posession so you don't count it....States know a certain amount of deer are going to die by natutal causes, get hit on the highway, get wounded by hunters, etc...
In NC you do not tag a deer if it's not in your posession....I'll type out what it says....
"Upon killing a bear, deer, wild boar or wild turkey, and before moving the animal from the site of kill, the successful hunter must validate the "Big Game Harvest Report Card" furnished with the big game hunting license, by cutting or punching out the validation mark that correctly identifies the big game animal harvested".............Page 51 of the NC Regs.....
If I remember correctly, you can't convict a person of murder if there is no body....
Now...Since we do get free, unlimited doe tags in NC, if you think it's important for the State's record keeping to report another doe killed, go for it...The problem is....You might be screwing up the records because that doe might be walking around this morning.....
Guys, hunting is a learning experience, every time I take a shot, I know I will kill that deer...It comes through going through what GMMAT is going through today....If I take a shot that I know I can make and things don't turn out as I had hoped, I know I did the best I could and do my best to keep the same thing from happening in the future...It's called experience and the only way you can get experience is through screwing up......
In NC you do not tag a deer if it's not in your posession....I'll type out what it says....
"Upon killing a bear, deer, wild boar or wild turkey, and before moving the animal from the site of kill, the successful hunter must validate the "Big Game Harvest Report Card" furnished with the big game hunting license, by cutting or punching out the validation mark that correctly identifies the big game animal harvested".............Page 51 of the NC Regs.....
If I remember correctly, you can't convict a person of murder if there is no body....
Now...Since we do get free, unlimited doe tags in NC, if you think it's important for the State's record keeping to report another doe killed, go for it...The problem is....You might be screwing up the records because that doe might be walking around this morning.....
Guys, hunting is a learning experience, every time I take a shot, I know I will kill that deer...It comes through going through what GMMAT is going through today....If I take a shot that I know I can make and things don't turn out as I had hoped, I know I did the best I could and do my best to keep the same thing from happening in the future...It's called experience and the only way you can get experience is through screwing up......
10-10-2007, 10:00 AM
#55
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: North Lima Ohio & Clarion Pa
Posts: 6,453
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
As for the tagging part of this issue, and the moral obligation. I still stand that the tag should not be used. BUT the moral obligation is not attached to the tag or the State DNR. It is up to the hunter. Morals are not Laws..per say..they run much deeper. I will speed, but I won't litter..type of thing..both illegal but morally I have to live with the consequence of each.
The hunter (any hunter)who has wounded a deer must re-evaluate his pursuit. In a one Buck State maybe that hunter refuses to take another buck..Maybe he hunts for that one buck (wounded?.. still alive?..carcass?)the rest of the year and never alters from that pursuit.
There is no buying of a guilt free conscious by sacrificing a tag. If this wounding troubles the hunter than he will have to deal with it emotionally on his own terms. If he feels a PRICE must be paid, let him make a donation to the charity thread or the State DNR.
The hunter (any hunter)who has wounded a deer must re-evaluate his pursuit. In a one Buck State maybe that hunter refuses to take another buck..Maybe he hunts for that one buck (wounded?.. still alive?..carcass?)the rest of the year and never alters from that pursuit.
There is no buying of a guilt free conscious by sacrificing a tag. If this wounding troubles the hunter than he will have to deal with it emotionally on his own terms. If he feels a PRICE must be paid, let him make a donation to the charity thread or the State DNR.
10-10-2007, 10:18 AM
#56
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 44
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
Jeff,
I had a somewhat similar situation. I hit a deer on Monday evening. It was gutshot. I looked for it at midnight and jumped it. I looked in the morning unsuccessfully. After classes, I looked again in the evening. Just as I was getting ready to leave, I found it. This was 24 hours after the shot. Although I was not sure if it was in good enough shape, I decided to take it home, gut it out, cut a piece off, and see. First I tagged it and checked it. Our temporary tags here in TN are to be attached to the animal, which I did when I first found it. I then checked it in at the station and got a permanent tag. Unfortunately, after checking it and getting it home, my friend and I decided the meat was not in good enough shape after we cooked up a small amount.
Anyway, lest I ramble, my input on your situation is this. I made every reasonable effort to find my deer possible, and I ended up being lucky enough to have success at the last minute. If I had not found it, I would not know for certain what had happened to it. It may have lived by a miracle, it may have died, it may have been put down by someone else and kept, it may have been weak and taken down by a predator, my point is that anything can happen.
From seeing your posts on here, I am confident that you would have made every reasonable effort as well. Unfortunately, you just didn't happen to be successful in finding it this time. I think you can be at peace that without a carcass or any physical evidence of the animal, you are not obligated legally or morally to tag the animal. You simply have no way of knowing where it is or what "exactly" happened to it.
Jon
I had a somewhat similar situation. I hit a deer on Monday evening. It was gutshot. I looked for it at midnight and jumped it. I looked in the morning unsuccessfully. After classes, I looked again in the evening. Just as I was getting ready to leave, I found it. This was 24 hours after the shot. Although I was not sure if it was in good enough shape, I decided to take it home, gut it out, cut a piece off, and see. First I tagged it and checked it. Our temporary tags here in TN are to be attached to the animal, which I did when I first found it. I then checked it in at the station and got a permanent tag. Unfortunately, after checking it and getting it home, my friend and I decided the meat was not in good enough shape after we cooked up a small amount.
Anyway, lest I ramble, my input on your situation is this. I made every reasonable effort to find my deer possible, and I ended up being lucky enough to have success at the last minute. If I had not found it, I would not know for certain what had happened to it. It may have lived by a miracle, it may have died, it may have been put down by someone else and kept, it may have been weak and taken down by a predator, my point is that anything can happen.
From seeing your posts on here, I am confident that you would have made every reasonable effort as well. Unfortunately, you just didn't happen to be successful in finding it this time. I think you can be at peace that without a carcass or any physical evidence of the animal, you are not obligated legally or morally to tag the animal. You simply have no way of knowing where it is or what "exactly" happened to it.
Jon
10-10-2007, 10:59 AM
#57
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: York,Pa
Posts: 2,645
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
You guys seem to think I have some sort of ulterior motive for asking a simple question. I don't.
When you assess a situation.....you have to (in my eyes....and in the state of NC's eyes) determine in your mind (with the experienced advice from ohters, if aailable) if you think the deer you injured is alive or dead. If it's dead....it MUST be tagged.
Rem's right.....in NC I don't have to physically "tag" a deer. We simply call them in.
So.......is it such a stupid question? Here's one.....You shoot one and it runs into a swift river during it's death circle. It's CLEARLY dead......but do you tag this one if you can't put your hands on it? What's the difference?
_____________________________
"It's not about us (hunters). What we do is about THEM (the deer)"
"You could build a city in the distance between "passing" and actually putting an animal on the ground. "
Jeff
1190223 -- 9/8/07 How do you tag a deer that you did not find? You can not fill a tag out and send it to the check station for a deer your not 100% sure is dead! And in this case above you saw the deer die so you would tag it!
When you assess a situation.....you have to (in my eyes....and in the state of NC's eyes) determine in your mind (with the experienced advice from ohters, if aailable) if you think the deer you injured is alive or dead. If it's dead....it MUST be tagged.
Rem's right.....in NC I don't have to physically "tag" a deer. We simply call them in.
So.......is it such a stupid question? Here's one.....You shoot one and it runs into a swift river during it's death circle. It's CLEARLY dead......but do you tag this one if you can't put your hands on it? What's the difference?
_____________________________
"It's not about us (hunters). What we do is about THEM (the deer)"
"You could build a city in the distance between "passing" and actually putting an animal on the ground. "
Jeff
1190223 -- 9/8/07 How do you tag a deer that you did not find? You can not fill a tag out and send it to the check station for a deer your not 100% sure is dead! And in this case above you saw the deer die so you would tag it!
10-10-2007, 11:03 AM
#58
Dominant Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location:
Posts: 21,043
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
I'm sorry.....but from a couple of the posts, here.....I think we need to determine what constitues a "valid effort" at recovering an injured animal. "I" think I used the resources available to me, yesterday.....and that I made a "valid effort" to recover (or at least discern if it was still alive) her.
My shop owner (who's been deer hunting for more than 20 years) told me the entire blood trail that he wasn't convinced the deer was dead (based on color of blood; amt. of blood; etc...). We searched the woods for more than 7 hours for a deer that he didn't think was dead. How much more should I have done? That's an honest question. I used every available resource to me that I had.....except a dog that has no training in such pursuits (other thna the two times I've used her in the past......with one of those times resulting in me recovering the deer the next morning.....w/out her).
What more should I have done? What would you have done, differently?
My shop owner (who's been deer hunting for more than 20 years) told me the entire blood trail that he wasn't convinced the deer was dead (based on color of blood; amt. of blood; etc...). We searched the woods for more than 7 hours for a deer that he didn't think was dead. How much more should I have done? That's an honest question. I used every available resource to me that I had.....except a dog that has no training in such pursuits (other thna the two times I've used her in the past......with one of those times resulting in me recovering the deer the next morning.....w/out her).
What more should I have done? What would you have done, differently?
10-10-2007, 11:12 AM
#59
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: York,Pa
Posts: 2,645
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
[hr]
[hr]
I'm sorry.....but from a couple of the posts, here.....I think we need to determine what constitues a "valid effort" at recovering an injured animal. "I" think I used the resources available to me, yesterday.....and that I made a "valid effort" to recover (or at least discern if it was still alive) her.
My shop owner (who's been deer hunting for more than 20 years) told me the entire blood trail that he wasn't convinced the deer was dead (based on color of blood; amt. of blood; etc...). We searched the woods for more than 7 hours for a deer that he didn't think was dead. How much more should I have done? That's an honest question. I used every available resource to me that I had.....except a dog that has no training in such pursuits (other thna the two times I've used her in the past......with one of those times resulting in me recovering the deer the next morning.....w/out her).
What more should I have done? What would you have done, differently?
_____________________________
"It's not about us (hunters). What we do is about THEM (the deer)"
"You could build a city in the distance between "passing" and actually putting an animal on the ground. "
Jeff
1190223 -- 9/8/07
[hr]
[hr]
Jeff,
I think you did a great job in trying to find her! I personally think maybe a few days away from hunting will do you some good you took your lumps this year and sometimes its good to step away for a little then get back to it! This is just my opinion dont take it personally. I have had my share of rough times down to where I wanted to quit bowhunting! You did a hell of alot more than alot of people would. I really commend you for the RESPECT of the animal your hunting that you have! That is something else not many people have. Godd luck and good hunting!!
Tim
10-10-2007, 11:13 AM
#60
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: masontown pa USA
Posts: 851
RE: Ethics question - Tagging deer
ORIGINAL: GMMAT
I'm sorry.....but from a couple of the posts, here.....I think we need to determine what constitues a "valid effort" at recovering an injured animal. "I" think I used the resources available to me, yesterday.....and that I made a "valid effort" to recover (or at least discern if it was still alive) her.
My shop owner (who's been deer hunting for more than 20 years) told me the entire blood trail that he wasn't convinced the deer was dead (based on color of blood; amt. of blood; etc...). We searched the woods for more than 7 hours for a deer that he didn't think was dead. How much more should I have done? That's an honest question. I used every available resource to me that I had.....except a dog that has no training in such pursuits (other thna the two times I've used her in the past......with one of those times resulting in me recovering the deer the next morning.....w/out her).
What more should I have done? What would you have done, differently?
I'm sorry.....but from a couple of the posts, here.....I think we need to determine what constitues a "valid effort" at recovering an injured animal. "I" think I used the resources available to me, yesterday.....and that I made a "valid effort" to recover (or at least discern if it was still alive) her.
My shop owner (who's been deer hunting for more than 20 years) told me the entire blood trail that he wasn't convinced the deer was dead (based on color of blood; amt. of blood; etc...). We searched the woods for more than 7 hours for a deer that he didn't think was dead. How much more should I have done? That's an honest question. I used every available resource to me that I had.....except a dog that has no training in such pursuits (other thna the two times I've used her in the past......with one of those times resulting in me recovering the deer the next morning.....w/out her).
What more should I have done? What would you have done, differently?