beprepn

One thing that bothered me w.r.t. to the earlier thread on penetration was the anecdotal evidence that light carbons penetrate better on targets than do heavier, and higher momentum, aluminums. I think that Joe Tapley, homepage.ntlworld.com/joetapley/target.htm, has the answer.

He shows that targets slow arrows primarily by grabbing the shaft. For this kind of a force, penetration does relate to KE - not momentum. Plus carbon arrows have a smaller diameter such that the force slowing them down is less than the force slowing down an aluminum arrow. So, for most commercial targets, extra momentum is little advantage and larger diameter is a big disadvantage.

For a deer, on the other hand, the broadhead cuts a hole for the shaft. The forces slowing down the arrow traveling through the deer are viscous forces - like a boat plowing through water - and cutting forces. For both of these the forces are proportional to velocity and the penetration is directly proportional to momentum.

Bottom line, as usual, no free lunch - those targets are lieing to us!

beprepn

Rack-attack

beprepen,

You seem to be the gospal for heavy arrows, and thats cool with me

Though I do not agree with you, I have in the past had many debates, and have done much of my own research on all the points of heavy and light that you have brought up.

Experience to me is 100 times more important that research. And I will tell you SPEED is a HUGE factor in penetration.

I will let you shoot my new DC Patriot with a 365 grn arrow into a brand new Tuff Buck 3d target. And when you see the point coming out the other side<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> you will be a believer<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

I never imagined my penetration would increase by so much.

You keep preaching your fat arrows and when you see me in the woods bent over some red leaves and clumps of hair, with a gorilla grip in my hand trying to pull my little itty pitty bloody arrow from the core of the Earth, just keep on walking<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

bigbulls

There is alot more to penetration than the weight and diameter and speed of the arrow such as stiffness of the shaft, size of the head, number of blades, length of the arrow, number and length of fletching. All things above being equal a smaller diameter shaft will allways penetrate better than a larger diameter one due to less surface area and less friction. A stiffer arrow (carbons) will penetrate better than a weaker (aluminum) arrow due to the bending of the arrow when it makes contact with the target. A stiffer arrow transfers more energy into the target as opposed to the weaker one that will bend more when it hits a target. If you are shooting into the same target medium, whether an animal or target, the smaller, faster arrow will always out penetrate the heavier slower arrow provided they have the same KE. The fatter shaft (More surface area) will always generate more friction than the thinner arrow (Less surface area) no matter what you are shooting into. That is a fact and is indisputable.

kodiakhuntmaster

It's been my experience that light arrows penetrate better through soft tissue like a hit right behind the shoulder on a deer. Heavy arrows penetrate better through thick muscle and bone like a shoulder shot. Speed kills. But if you ever smack a hard bone, you'll wish you were shooting big broomstick arrows.

&quot;Hey ya'll, watch this&quot;

beprepn

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
beprepen,

You seem to be the gospal for heavy arrows, and thats cool with me

Though I do not agree with you, I have in the past had many debates, and have done much of my own research on all the points of heavy and light that you have brought up.

Experience to me is 100 times more important that research. And I will tell you SPEED is a HUGE factor in penetration.

I will let you shoot my new DC Patriot with a 365 grn arrow into a brand new Tuff Buck 3d target. And when you see the point coming out the other side<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> you will be a believer<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

I never imagined my penetration would increase by so much.

You keep preaching your fat arrows and when you see me in the woods bent over some red leaves and clumps of hair, with a gorilla grip in my hand trying to pull my little itty pitty bloody arrow from the core of the Earth, just keep on walking<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

I would like to shoot your dually.

It's probably just as well you don't shoot 9 grains per pound, it probably tears up the fletchings when they bury into the ground after a pass through!

beprepn

Big John

After 38 years of shooting deer with bow equipment, from the largest wood shafts , the large aluminums, to overdraws with small aluminums, and now with carbons, I have to say the carbons will out penetrate. I also realize that the bows have gotten faster, but, all in all, those carbons smoke and I'm staying with them.

beprepn

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...
If you are shooting into the same target medium, whether an animal or target, the smaller, faster arrow will always out penetrate the heavier slower arrow provided they have the same KE. ...
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bigbulls-
I am with you to this point. Take the extreme - shoot a laser beam with 75 foot pounds of KE. No penetration because the momentum is too low - of course, you can use one pin out to the moon which makes up for it somewhat. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

beprepn

pdq 5oh

One thing to consisder when talking penetration in a foam target is the heat generated by a carbon arrow. Why do carbons need lube? Because the heat causes them to stick. I pull an arrow and it's usually still warm after a few minutes, and may have foam sticking to it. The heat is caused by friction, which more quickly slows the arrow. Yet the carbons still go in deeper, all things being equal.

Phil.
&quot;Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot.&quot;<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

selway

kodiackhuntmaster i hit deer in the shoulder with heavy aluminum arrows and the results came out with the arrow bent in a j with no penatration . a poor shot is a poor shot.

you can use your pepper spray my 12 gauge with 3 inch slugs works fine

selway

kodiackhuntmaster i hit deer in the shoulder with heavy aluminum arrows and the results came out with the arrow bent in a j with no penatration . a poor shot is a poor shot.

you can use your pepper spray my 12 gauge with 3 inch slugs works fine