Penetration Target Lies

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01-13-2003, 11:42 PM

#21

Arthur P

Giant Nontypical

Join Date: Feb 2003

Posts: 9,175

RE: Penetration Target Lies

Just to make sure you guys know, I am not beprepn and beprepn is not me.

Beprepn, if you'll go back 5 or 6 months, you'll find this topic has been beat to death. These guys have been very kind to you so far. Certain individuals will turn extremely nasty if you keep it up. Believe me.

Forget trying to persuade them. Just accept that you have something to say that they don't want to hear and leave it at that.

Edited by - Arthur P on 01/13/2003 23:43:30

01-14-2003, 12:10 AM

#22

Charlie P

Boone & Crockett

Join Date: Feb 2003

Posts: 19,137

RE: Penetration Target Lies

I had a bunch of questions for you but then I thouht why bother, I like my set up just fine, and it kills deer dead.

One thing kinda stuck in my head.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>For penetrating targets, the smaller O.D. of carbons is usually a big advantage. That's the lie that the target is telling - carbons will not have the same advantage on a deer. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Where did you get this from? I thought you were just getting back into bowhunting after 15 years, so you aren't basing this statement on your own experience right?

01-14-2003, 07:03 AM

#23

pdq 5oh

Nontypical Buck

Join Date: Feb 2003

Location: Oh USA

Posts: 1,584

RE: Penetration Target Lies

Hi Arthur, good to see your words. All is well, I hope.
I don't think people are disputing that heavy arrows work, just stating that light arrows work, too. Nearly any well placed arrow gets the job done.
quote beprepn:
"The forces slowing down the arrow traveling through the deer are viscous forces - like a boat plowing through water - and cutting forces. For both of these the forces are proportional to velocity and the penetration is directly proportional to momentum."
Doesn't more velocity mean more momentum? Momentum is retained energy, velocity and weight combined. I agree higher weight helps momentum, but higher velocity resists slowing as well. At normal hunting ranges, I see no real advantage to either. The advantage I see is what makes someone comfortable.

Phil.
"Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot."<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

01-14-2003, 07:44 AM

#24

Arthur P

Giant Nontypical

Join Date: Feb 2003

Posts: 9,175

RE: Penetration Target Lies

Hi back atcha, Phil. After the big aluminum vs carbon blowout some months ago, it became obvious I don't fit in with today's compound community so I went back to traditional. Been making selfbows, rescuing old recurves from yard sales and am just finishing up making my first glass laminated reflex/deflex longbow.

You're right. Velocity equals momentum just like weight equals momentum. A 600 gn cedar arrow flying out of my longbow at 180 fps carries 43 ft lbs of energy and has .4788 pound seconds of momentum. To equal that momentum a 350 gn arrow has to be flying 308 fps with 74 ft lbs.

That's 42% less arrow weight than I'm shooting, but taking 42% more speed and 42% more energy to get the same passthru I get with my slow ol' logs. So, Rack-attack is also correct when he says 'speed is a huge factor in penetration.' But he is also incorrect by forgetting to mention the fact that weight is also a huge factor. The less speed your bow is capable of generating, the huge-r role weight plays.

Just another comparison with momentum... My 580 gn aluminums fly 225 fps out of my round wheel ProTec. That's 65 ft lbs of energy and .5788 pound seconds for momentum. That 350 gn arrow would have to scream along at 373 fps and carry 108 ft lbs of energy to equal that much momentum.

Edited by - Arthur P on 01/14/2003 07:52:55

01-14-2003, 09:14 AM

#25

pdq 5oh

Nontypical Buck

Join Date: Feb 2003

Location: Oh USA

Posts: 1,584

RE: Penetration Target Lies

Good luck with your new hobby. I suspect you still "fit in". You just need more space.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Take care pal.

Phil.
"Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot."<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

01-14-2003, 10:56 AM

#26

lamb1647

Nontypical Buck

Join Date: Feb 2003

Location: Goose Creek SC

Posts: 1,097

RE: Penetration Target Lies

Arthur,

Could you send me an e-mail? I have some questions for you on your first effort at building a glass laminate bow.

Thanks!

Bill

[email protected]

Praise the Lord, He is worthy

01-14-2003, 04:17 PM

#27

Big Country

Nontypical Buck

Join Date: Feb 2003

Location: New Stanton PA USA

Posts: 2,213

RE: Penetration Target Lies

AurturP, glad to see you back posting again!

I sure have missed reading your words of wisdom lately, and I know I`m not alone.

We don`t have to agree on everything to appreciate your point of view!

Stick around!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

01-14-2003, 04:18 PM

#28

beprepn

Thread Starter

Join Date: Feb 2003

Location: Murrysville PA USA

Posts: 119

RE: Penetration Target Lies

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I do have a question concerning beprepn`s last statement though.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I plan to replace my bow with a 70# bow and shoot heavy enough arrows that I get good flight out of fixed broadheads - probably about 560 grains to keep the speed below 250fps.

beprepn
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Does this mean that fixed blade heads such as my thunderhead 125gr. will not fly accurately at much higher speeds than 250fps?

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I don't know. Others have suggested that mechanicals are better over 250fps. These discussions have convinced me that with a current technology bow, that we have some penetration to burn such that I'm willing to go a little lighter then I would have a month ago. 250fps seemed like a nice compromise. If I remember right, the thunderheads have a profile that looks like it would be unlikely to plane.

beprepn

01-14-2003, 05:15 PM

#29

beprepn

Thread Starter

Join Date: Feb 2003

Location: Murrysville PA USA

Posts: 119

RE: Penetration Target Lies

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I prefer using carbons due to the fact they can take more abuse.And also I'd like to ask a ? to Beprepn.You said that a carbon will not pass thru a deer.Do you mean all carbons in general? Because my beman400 ics hunters Have passed thru deer,bear,and elk.at distances of 20 to 40 yards away.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I'm sorry I was that unclear. On a good hit even with my 30 year old compound I would expect a pass through even with a relatively light arrow even if I hit a rib. What I've learned from the DB's is that I might even penetrate the spine with this setup. With a heavier arrow I'd have a better chance of penetrating the spine and I would pay for that with a shorter effective range.

beprepn

01-14-2003, 05:20 PM

#30

beprepn

Thread Starter

Join Date: Feb 2003

Location: Murrysville PA USA

Posts: 119

RE: Penetration Target Lies

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...
Beprepn, if you'll go back 5 or 6 months, you'll find this topic has been beat to death. These guys have been very kind to you so far. ...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

The DB has been actively generous and I've learned quite a bit. My first thread was pretty badly stated.

You write much better than I do, though - well, you can never convince everybody.

beprepn

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