Help me understand the No man's land"
#21
RE: Help me understand the No man's land"
First off, Read or Reread the Recovery thread pinned at the top of the page. Under your circumstance I highly think you pushed the deer regardless if it survived or not.
#22
RE: Help me understand the No man's land"
I’ve seen 3 old wounds on deer that lead me to believe ANYTHING is possible.
1st wound- doe shot with an arrow, completely healed over from previous year. Hole thru 1 scapula, under spine, chunk taken out of other scapula. Most puzzling thing I have ever seen in my life.
2nd wound- buck shot with arrow, wound less than a week old, not completely healed over. Entered just in front of last rib, just under spine, cut the inner loins, exited one more rib forward. Noticed inner loins were “cut” during gutting but could not tell buck had been shot until skinning it.
3rd wound- Doe shot with gun. About mid-way between last rib and front of rear leg, above spine. Hole completely thru, breaking the little top ridge off of a vertebrae. Wound was a little nasty, and oozing white gunk. Whatever bullet they used went thru leaving a rather large hole, but failed to break spine somehow? I bet the deer had to have dropped and got back up.
Those are my observations on deer I have butchered.
1st wound- doe shot with an arrow, completely healed over from previous year. Hole thru 1 scapula, under spine, chunk taken out of other scapula. Most puzzling thing I have ever seen in my life.
2nd wound- buck shot with arrow, wound less than a week old, not completely healed over. Entered just in front of last rib, just under spine, cut the inner loins, exited one more rib forward. Noticed inner loins were “cut” during gutting but could not tell buck had been shot until skinning it.
3rd wound- Doe shot with gun. About mid-way between last rib and front of rear leg, above spine. Hole completely thru, breaking the little top ridge off of a vertebrae. Wound was a little nasty, and oozing white gunk. Whatever bullet they used went thru leaving a rather large hole, but failed to break spine somehow? I bet the deer had to have dropped and got back up.
Those are my observations on deer I have butchered.
#23
RE: Help me understand the No man's land"
Here is the picture, study it well. The no man's land exists but NOT in the deer's chest cavity. The lungs fill the entire thoracic cavity. Before someone jumps in and says but I dressed a deer and there was a bunch of space around the lungs............ Yes there was and always will be. The lungs work in a negative pressure environment, atmospheric pressure in the chest is lower than that outside. Take away negative pressure and the lungs immediately collapse and will not reinflate, hence the term collapsed lung. As soon as you enter the chest via the diaphragm or though the chest wall they deflate and appear much smaller than in a live scenario. The only way to see the lungs in their natural state is with and ultrasound or CT scan. There is no space between them and the chest wall.
To answer the original question, you can absolutely hit a deer through both backstraps and not kill it, knock it down or even hurt it badly. I would guess about 99% of the shots where people say I shot right under the spine and above the lungs actually was above the spine and through the backstrap. How this happens, look at the picture above, the blue line denotes the path of the spinal cord, it travel within the vertebral body in the vertebral canal, totally encased in bone. Each vertebrae has what is called a dorsal spinous process, these are the bones you see sticking up along the top of the spine in the picture. In the cervical and lumbar spine these are very short. In the thoracic spine they are long, 6-8 inches in a mature buck. The backstraps, composed of the epaxial muscle group attatch to these processes. In the picture, essentiall everything above the blue line (spine) is backstrap and dorsal spinous process, you can even see the top of the shoulder blade overlies this area. If you hit a deer high near the shoulder you will go through both backstraps, maybe or maybe not break a dorsal spinous process and exit with the deer basically unharmed. Make sense?
For you guys that dress your own, this fall after you remove the front legs and take off the backstraps take a look at these bones sticking up off of the indiviual vertebrae. You will see what I'm talking about. Take a pair of pliers and break a couple off, it won't open up the vertebral canal and you won't be able to see the spinal cord.
#25
RE: Help me understand the No man's land"
The no zone is not through the back straps. The no zone is below the spine, but above the vitals. The no zone does exist, and most hunters will hit it some time in their career.
#27
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Pa
Posts: 4,647
RE: Help me understand the No man's land"
I've killed quite a few deer with a bow... And I have shot a deer once and seen the arrow hit the deer just below the spine... The deer jumped and walked off... I watched this deer walk across a creek then go up a steep mountain... I watched her just walk off as if nothing happened... She paused and looked around a few times and just walked off with the other deer that she was with... I keep her in view for about 150 yards before she faded off in the woods... I got out of the stand and found my arrow... The arrow had a VERY light film of blood almost unnoticeable... There was a film of fatty looking stuff on the shaft with some hair...
So yes I do belive there is a area on the deer that you could call the no mans land shot...
So yes I do belive there is a area on the deer that you could call the no mans land shot...
#28
RE: Help me understand the No man's land"
After all these years Now I know,THANKS MEZ! Man that was just good!!! But like Longbread said I to have seen them hit in this area with a fatty film and very little blood.
#29
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Southwest PA
Posts: 1,244
RE: Help me understand the No man's land"
Here is a link from another forum. Not sure if that's allowed or not but I'll try.
I see no way to hit below the spine and not take out the lungs. I honestly believe when looking at these pictures, it's just a bad shot and the hunter doesn't realize where the arrow is going.
http://forums.mathewsinc.com/viewtopic.php?t=21358
I see no way to hit below the spine and not take out the lungs. I honestly believe when looking at these pictures, it's just a bad shot and the hunter doesn't realize where the arrow is going.
http://forums.mathewsinc.com/viewtopic.php?t=21358
#30
RE: Help me understand the No man's land"
ORIGINAL: Pops423
Here is a link from another forum. Not sure if that's allowed or not but I'll try.
I see no way to hit below the spine and not take out the lungs. I honestly believe when looking at these pictures, it's just a bad shot and the hunter doesn't realize where the arrow is going.
http://forums.mathewsinc.com/viewtopic.php?t=21358
Here is a link from another forum. Not sure if that's allowed or not but I'll try.
I see no way to hit below the spine and not take out the lungs. I honestly believe when looking at these pictures, it's just a bad shot and the hunter doesn't realize where the arrow is going.
http://forums.mathewsinc.com/viewtopic.php?t=21358