Red Lion

Jelen = PETA IMPOSTER

statjunk

It seems to me like your a meat hunter. Shoot a couple of big ones and you'll quickly go back to the smaller deer. Quality vs quantity.

Tom

jelen

What's up brother...sorry I haven't hollered at you but...well...no excuses...I'm sorry to hear about your accident...what a bummer! You'll recover and return with a great story...you always do. Good luck Rob...you're always da man in my book...take care bro. You are good people.

Not sure how the masses missed my point on this one but perhaps that is enough in itself.





wolfen

jelen

Red Lion equals....joke...what the h e double hockey sticks is "red lion" anyway? Sounds serious...and yes, I'm an imposter for PETA...gimma frickin' break.

BigJ71

I didn't miss your point at all.......

What I don't understand is why you feel the deer NEED to be helped out by killing off the older stronger mature deer in order for the "herd" to be healthy?

If leftto their own devises(no hunters) there is no doubt deer numbers would soon be over populated in most if not all of the regions they inhabit. But the doe to buck ratios would differ from herd to herd and I suspect there would be far more does than bucks. The doe to buck ratios would be no where near what youand the rest of the QDM crowd would want them to be.

If left to nature only the strong and most healthy would survive yet allyou want to do is shoot does and only mature bucks, letting all of the younger bucks "go so they can grow"these mature bucks are thevery bucks that had itnot been for us hunters would probably be the ones to survive. How is killing them doing ANY justice to the natural order of deer herds?

The deer herds where I hunt are very numerous and in certain spots have almost no hunting pressure to speak of (just me)so they are about as natural aherd as you will find, no crop fields, no feeders, no food plots, just forest and natural growning grass. I can almost guarantee a QDM guy would say the doe to buck ratios were off. I see bucks, lots of them but there are far more does running around yet this happened naturally with no help from anyone and very little effect from hunters, go figure.

Why is it so hard to understand that some people don't want to stack the odds in their favorof seeing big bucks?

Why is it so hard to understand that some people like to hunt what Mother Nature yields and not whata food plot or feeder provided?

Why is it so hard to understand that there doesn't have to be a slammer mature buck behind every tree for the herds to be healthy?

Why is it so hard to understand that different people hunt for different reasons?

Why is it so hard to understand that some people get more satisfaction out of finding and killing the more elusive buck than simply creating more so they can add to their P&Y totals and beat their chest about how great a hunter they are?

I would much rather have one P&Y buck on my wall that I out smarted from it's natural enviornment, having grown the way Mother Nature designedthan to have 10 that I grew and passed on year after year until it was ripe for the picking.

Hunting while providing the only real solution to controlling overall herd numbers and thus helping the deer herds (and the whole eco system that revolves around them) is also very destructive and selfish because the main target (for the most part) is the biggest and strongest of the species. If you truly cared about the deer herds and Quality Deer Management, you would only be concerned with overall numbers period.Not a single mature deer would be killed because after all it's they who stand the best chance of procreating and thus keeping the life cycle going.

QDM is NOT about deer it's about hunters shooting big bucks.

Shoot what you want, be as ethical and honest as you can and enjoy the SPORT that is hunting. If that means only hunting slammers then good for you, I'm right with you. If it means shooting whatever makes you happy then good for you, I'm right with you as well.

GMMAT

Call me naive, John (and I certainly....for the most part don't disagree with your overall assessment).....but I think the latter can be a side effect of the former.

I take MOSTLY what I've learned about QDM with a grain of salt. I truly want whats best for the herd I hunt (and I've changed the way I'll hunt fora couple of years to try to help the herd)......and if that means I'll have a better chance at a larger buck.....then so be it. Honestly, though.....it's not the number 1 reason I've chosen my approach.

Whether anyone believes this or not......I have no control over. I'm not hunting for "them". I'm actually not hunting, this year, for ME. I'm not hunting the way I WANT to hunt. I'm hunting the way "I" think I NEED to hunt.

Good luck to all.

brucelanthier

We didn't miss your point but perhaps you missed ours .

BigJ71

I agree Jeff....don't get me wrong, I like to hunt big bucks. What I'm trying to say is.......Ok let's just say hypothetically there was no hunting at all....none.Deer herds across the country (for the most part) would boom and there would soon be an overpopulation problem, agree?

So, what do you think would be done to HELP the deer herds? Do you think anyone who was assigned the task (DNR or whatever)would be passing on 1.5 year old bucks?? That's my point, the younger deer wouldn't get a free pass, the overall numbers would be reduced period. I know this to be true because this very thing is practiced in the Forest Preserves here in Illinois where hunting is not allowed. The DNR (or whoever it is) comes in and thins out the herds and their not selective on what they shoot.The result? a healthier herd.

QDM is about growing better bucks for HUNTERS to shoot. Does it help the herds in the process? Yes it does because you are still reducing the overall numbers where it needs to be, but you have the by-product backward.

You want what's best for your herd as a hunter and you have stated that the overall numbers need to be brought down so you have decided to shoot a lot of does this year if possible and I think that's great, it's what I do here too. What I won't do is make it easier for me to see (and therefore kill) bigger bucks, I'll let Mother Nature decide that.


My area is a perfect scenario to expose QDM (as we know it today) for what it really is. Where I hunt there are plenty of deer and plenty of bucks. The only thing it could use is a slightly reduced overall number but it's not bad. I guarantee you though the QDM folks would still tell me to pass on younger bucks, put in food plots, etc........Why?

GMMAT

They do that here, John....at a place that's fenced in and allows no hunting. they're not selective, either. But...let's look at it this way......they're reducing the population by (X) amount of deer. They're controlling the numbers the ONLY way they can. I think QDM gives hunters an "alternative" method of herd control....with bigger racked bucks being a side-effect. You have to rememebr, too.....that hunters in most states don't have the: a) time or b) tags to achieve what mass kill-offs can achieve in one fell swoop. The pop. control (non-QDM) don't care about herd dynamics. They care about carrying capacity.

Now....I'm interested in helping out the carrying capacity of the land I have limited control over. With MY resources......(a bow and arrow).....what's the most efficient method for ME to achieve my goal? Would it be to target all animals? Or...would it make more sense for me to target the ones that are reproducing?

If my buck/doe ratio was near healthy levels.....and pop. control was my goal.....you are 100% correct. I shouldn't be choosy. I have to get the most bang for my buck, though (no pun intended). Let's just say I shoot the first 15 deer that offer me shots.....in a scenario of PURE herd reduction. I shoot 10 does and 5 bucks (of varying ages). I have taken out (for next year's numbers) 5 deer that will definitely not be in the herd (bucks) and the potential for 20+ for next year's herd count (does). If I use the same scenario....but shoot 15 does......well....you do the math. In other words....targeting does is MY best friend in my quest. Seeing larger racked bucks will be a welcomed side-effect.

I won't speak for "national" QDM. I only speak for my scenario. Do "I" think the REAL goal of the national QDM is all about the overall health of the deer herd? Nope. I think your assertions are correct in many ways. I also think my scenario is not unique.

BigJ71

I agree but it's not a side-effect...it's the objective.

Yes that's true,but it's still a healthy herd.....may not be as many bucks assome would like but still healthy.

If the numbers were reallyhigh then I would target does only asyou know by shooting does you are reducing the reproducing aspect not just the single deer. Seeing larger racked bucks is not a side effect of shooting does, it's a side effect of NOT shooting bucks. If that's what you want to do hey more power to ya, I've passed on many bucks through out the years but not because I wanted him to grow bigger, but because he wasn't what I wanted to shoot on that particular day.

As long as the deer herds don't get too over populated (or we don't kill them all off)they will survive and flourish on their ownperiod.There is no need tomanage the bucksin order to improve or increase the amount of mature big antlered deer. Not unless you want to make it easier to shoot them.