Where is the Science?
07-02-2007, 10:42 PM
#11
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location:
Posts: 481
RE: Where is the Science?
Unfortunately, science is too complex for most people and there is alot that we can't even come close to understanding, especially some of the stuff used by the military that we don't even know about. I think it is obvious that the general population will never understand things like that. I guess you have to just trust them. It's not like they would lie about that. That would be pretty pointless, wouldn't it?
07-03-2007, 05:59 AM
#12
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location:
Posts: 21,043
RE: Where is the Science?
All I know is.....
I put out minerals last year......MINERALS.....that I can't even detect an odor......and I had 37 game cam photos the first night.
You can talk about all the scent-elimination/scent-free stuff you want.....but they need that degree of olfactory prowess to survive....and they are good at locating both what they need....and what they need to avoid.
If I hunted where there was little to no human/human-related/domesticscent present......I'm not sure I'd kill one or even SEE one.
I put out minerals last year......MINERALS.....that I can't even detect an odor......and I had 37 game cam photos the first night.
You can talk about all the scent-elimination/scent-free stuff you want.....but they need that degree of olfactory prowess to survive....and they are good at locating both what they need....and what they need to avoid.
If I hunted where there was little to no human/human-related/domesticscent present......I'm not sure I'd kill one or even SEE one.
07-03-2007, 10:54 AM
#13
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: TX Panhandle
Posts: 620
RE: Where is the Science?
I got a book at Barnes and Noble last week you might be interested in. It is called (I think) "Common Scents Strategies." It talks about alot of the things you have mentioned here, and goes very in depth. If you are interested I could go home at lunch and get the name and author for sure, and you could check your local B&N for it. Lots of what I think is good info in there.
07-03-2007, 11:57 AM
#14
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,933
RE: Where is the Science?
Tomkat has some good points, regarding "learning versus taught". I can tell you this much, I've hunted all-over the midwest, grew up hunting in Michigan, now hunt in Iowa.
A comparison between the two. A 1-1/2 year old deer in Michigan acts like a 3-1/2 to 4-1/2 year old deer here in Iowa. Why? Hunting pressure is WAY heavy in Michigan compared to Iowa. I hunt some areas here in Iowa that I'm not even sure deer have interactions with humans. I'll get winded by a doe and she will hang around for sometimes up to 45 minutes, absolutely determined to find the source of the smell. We've actually documented many deer winding us that in certain areas of the country would have come inside out, here in Iowa with a lack of hunting pressure, they almost act confused, like "why am I smelling that here, I've never smelled that here before".... It's funny at times!
If you haven't seen our video, you would enjoy the "winded" aspect. Because I won't take sponsorships from any product or company related to "scent elimination", I have no-problem pointing out when we get winded, and actually love to share this aspect of our hunts. This is one of the most interesting aspects of hunting to me, so I plan on sharing everything I come accross and as many examples of thermals, wind currents, and just mind-boggling things in-regard to these unbelievable creatures as I possibly can. I could dedicate a whole DVD to the topic, maybe someday we will! he he he....
A comparison between the two. A 1-1/2 year old deer in Michigan acts like a 3-1/2 to 4-1/2 year old deer here in Iowa. Why? Hunting pressure is WAY heavy in Michigan compared to Iowa. I hunt some areas here in Iowa that I'm not even sure deer have interactions with humans. I'll get winded by a doe and she will hang around for sometimes up to 45 minutes, absolutely determined to find the source of the smell. We've actually documented many deer winding us that in certain areas of the country would have come inside out, here in Iowa with a lack of hunting pressure, they almost act confused, like "why am I smelling that here, I've never smelled that here before".... It's funny at times!
If you haven't seen our video, you would enjoy the "winded" aspect. Because I won't take sponsorships from any product or company related to "scent elimination", I have no-problem pointing out when we get winded, and actually love to share this aspect of our hunts. This is one of the most interesting aspects of hunting to me, so I plan on sharing everything I come accross and as many examples of thermals, wind currents, and just mind-boggling things in-regard to these unbelievable creatures as I possibly can. I could dedicate a whole DVD to the topic, maybe someday we will! he he he....
07-03-2007, 03:02 PM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sturgis, SD
Posts: 1,983
RE: Where is the Science?
Here is some scientific evidence as to the distribution of cells in the nose of deer and how that can relate to varied function. This is just an absrtact, I can get you the full text if you wish. You wanted science, there is alot of it here. I can get some more if you wish.
[Light microscopy studies on the olfactory epithelium of the deer]
[Article in German]
[/align]Kolb A.[/align]To examine the olfactory epithelium of the roe by the light microscope, the respective nasal region was prepared on the spot right on shooting, stained with a solution of Trypan-Blue, fixed in "Susa" thereafter, and was finally embedded in paraffin by the usual process. Macroscopically already a luxuriant development both of the endo- and ectoturbinalia was to be observed, filling the entire olfactory region of the nasal cavity with numerous folds, convolutions and ramifications. For the purpose of microscopic examination sections from 6 to 10 mum in thickness were made. The border between regio respiratoria and regio olfactoria runs irregularly. Again and again there are patches bare of receptors respectively glandular ones even in the olfactory region. The thickness of the olfactory mucous membrane varies from 140 to 400 mum, the height of the epithelium from 35 to 90 mum. The olfactory area was determined to total approx. 90 cm2 by means of two methods. The distribution of olfactory cells within the epithelium is a very irregular one, their number ranging from 4 to 62 cells per 1000 mum2. Most commonly a density of 24 to 42 cells was encountered. Taking a mean density of 33/1000 mum2 and an overall olfactory area of 90 cm2, the total number of olfactory cells was calculated to run up to 297 million. Sections which turned out well display several olfactory cells entire with pericaryon, dendrite, neck and capitulum with rupturing points of cilia on the latter. Olfactory cells exhibit big dimensional differences. Among other factors their size depends on their relative position within the epithelium and on the density of occurrence. Olfactory cells lying but sporadically within the epithelium mostly possess broad dendrites measuring slightly less in diameter than the pericaryon does, whereas densely situated receptors mainly present thin dendrites and small capitula. Some cell-parts vary independently from each other, some, however, seem to stand in certain relationship to each other. The great differences between individual olfactory cells give rise to the assumption that several cell types or cells of different function respectively are concealed behind it.
[Light microscopy studies on the olfactory epithelium of the deer]
[Article in German]
[/align]Kolb A.[/align]To examine the olfactory epithelium of the roe by the light microscope, the respective nasal region was prepared on the spot right on shooting, stained with a solution of Trypan-Blue, fixed in "Susa" thereafter, and was finally embedded in paraffin by the usual process. Macroscopically already a luxuriant development both of the endo- and ectoturbinalia was to be observed, filling the entire olfactory region of the nasal cavity with numerous folds, convolutions and ramifications. For the purpose of microscopic examination sections from 6 to 10 mum in thickness were made. The border between regio respiratoria and regio olfactoria runs irregularly. Again and again there are patches bare of receptors respectively glandular ones even in the olfactory region. The thickness of the olfactory mucous membrane varies from 140 to 400 mum, the height of the epithelium from 35 to 90 mum. The olfactory area was determined to total approx. 90 cm2 by means of two methods. The distribution of olfactory cells within the epithelium is a very irregular one, their number ranging from 4 to 62 cells per 1000 mum2. Most commonly a density of 24 to 42 cells was encountered. Taking a mean density of 33/1000 mum2 and an overall olfactory area of 90 cm2, the total number of olfactory cells was calculated to run up to 297 million. Sections which turned out well display several olfactory cells entire with pericaryon, dendrite, neck and capitulum with rupturing points of cilia on the latter. Olfactory cells exhibit big dimensional differences. Among other factors their size depends on their relative position within the epithelium and on the density of occurrence. Olfactory cells lying but sporadically within the epithelium mostly possess broad dendrites measuring slightly less in diameter than the pericaryon does, whereas densely situated receptors mainly present thin dendrites and small capitula. Some cell-parts vary independently from each other, some, however, seem to stand in certain relationship to each other. The great differences between individual olfactory cells give rise to the assumption that several cell types or cells of different function respectively are concealed behind it.
07-03-2007, 03:09 PM
#16
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sturgis, SD
Posts: 1,983
RE: Where is the Science?
Here is a link for you. You can do all the scientific research that your heart desires from this site.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=PubMed
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=PubMed
07-03-2007, 05:32 PM
#18
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location:
Posts: 1,796
RE: Where is the Science?
I hunt some areas here in Iowa that I'm not even sure deer have interactions with humans. I'll get winded by a doe and she will hang around for sometimes up to 45 minutes, absolutely determined to find the source of the smell.
Todd, I totally agree with the differences in deer being spooked by human scent, or just confused by it in different areas/states. This brings up another valid argument that I have with "myself" at times. If deer are not spooked by certain smells, but rather have their curiosity piqued, then why can we not get away with using cover scents or deer lure? The answer I believe can be found in the placement of the scent. It has to be upwind of the deer to attract for any distance. Not what you want when you are hoping for deer to come in from upwind. Now if we apply the scent at and in close proximity to our stand, the only deer that will probably investigate are those coming from upwind, which is most definately a good thing. The only reasons I see not to use scents in close proximity to your stand site would be the lack of camoflauge/cover and scent elimination practicesto hide you from the curious deer who will hang around to investigate said scent.(and also the Big Boy will always come in from downwind to investigate) That is such a copout that I always hear from different people. "They will always come in from downwind to investigate." This is far from the truth. If it were not, many more mature bucks would go unscathed season after season. Yes, some do make it thru the season using this instinctive tactic, but how many are killed each year that are taken because of proper stand site setup to "play the wind"? Therefore,if Iam already "playing the wind", I believe I will use my cover scent (apple) and maybe a little deer lure. If the BigBoy does come in from downwind, I will, as anyone else, pray for a good outcome from myscent elimination/camoflauge techniques. If he comes in from upwind, I will already have the wind to my advantage, plus a little added insurance that he/she will hang around long enough to have their curiosity piqued and offer me more shot placement opportunities. I know some will argue that deer are spooked by cover scents such as skunk, apple, fox urine, ect., but how many times have deer ever been spooked by these smells in their life? None. So why should they ever associate it with danger? Just because it does not belong there? How many deer actually know an apple tree, skunk, fox, etc. do not belong in that area. They have not been"taught" this as we teach dogs to smell. This is where the deers intinct comes into play. Have you as a human, ever realized at the last minute that somethingwas just not right? I believe deer have a certain amount of this instinctive"feel" forjust knowing wen something is not right. The smell ofabove said cover scents I would venture to say, have no role in this instinctive reaction.
OK, I quit. I guess I am just trying to teach myself something by explaining my thoughts here. Come quickbow season, before I crack.[8D]
LT
07-03-2007, 06:30 PM
#20
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern Idaho's Panhandle
Posts: 4,436
RE: Where is the Science?
Deerlearn to associate different levels of alarming scent molecules with danger as soon as they are born. Not only different odors and concentrations of alarming odor, different regions offer up many educating variables....Predation and hunting pressure being two of the greatest variables thatteaches these associations to the deer... Deer learn over time what kinds of human scents they are going to pick up when the eat in afarmers field at night or near a loggers machinery...or in your back yard. They learn to expect these smellsand hence wait till after dark if they associate those smells with danger.
Second they sure as heck know what odors they expect NOT to smell in and round their beds or secluded feeding areas. As you would in your own bedroom. Deer are consistently crossing the scent streams of predators and humans or at least predators in wilderness.
Predators are no different than us hunters in regards to givingoff protein based scent moleculesthat dissipate over time. Deer like other prey animals can detect levels....based on concentrations of molecules depositedas to how recent or close a predator is and what threat that equates too. Whether or not they need to flee, go on alert or sound off with a warning .....If they couldn't determine different levels of scent molecules...they would go into "flight or fight" response everytime they came across any sign of a dangerous odor. Then add in the variable of learned associations that a 1 year old deer has versus a 5.5 year old deer in the same hunting area.
Throw in the varying demeanors deer have... Lots of variables... like you guys talked about. The difference in deer behavior from region to region is dictated by the education they recieve as youngsters and what momma and papa are passing on for genes.
Cover scent or not we will never fool a bucks nose ifan offensive level of human scent is present..and again that's different for each and every deer in our own woods....if the human odor is great enough that the deer associates it with near danger ..that deer is going to blow out of there...if not..it may be on alert but move on through...Or the cover scent may suck them right in if they detect "no" human scent or a small amount enough to tolerate you. again dependent on each and every individual deer. Keeping human scent minimized can register to deer as you being fruther away and or have passed by much earlier when in reality your right there.. still its up to what the individual deer will tolerate..
Good luck.
Second they sure as heck know what odors they expect NOT to smell in and round their beds or secluded feeding areas. As you would in your own bedroom. Deer are consistently crossing the scent streams of predators and humans or at least predators in wilderness.
Predators are no different than us hunters in regards to givingoff protein based scent moleculesthat dissipate over time. Deer like other prey animals can detect levels....based on concentrations of molecules depositedas to how recent or close a predator is and what threat that equates too. Whether or not they need to flee, go on alert or sound off with a warning .....If they couldn't determine different levels of scent molecules...they would go into "flight or fight" response everytime they came across any sign of a dangerous odor. Then add in the variable of learned associations that a 1 year old deer has versus a 5.5 year old deer in the same hunting area.
Throw in the varying demeanors deer have... Lots of variables... like you guys talked about. The difference in deer behavior from region to region is dictated by the education they recieve as youngsters and what momma and papa are passing on for genes.
Cover scent or not we will never fool a bucks nose ifan offensive level of human scent is present..and again that's different for each and every deer in our own woods....if the human odor is great enough that the deer associates it with near danger ..that deer is going to blow out of there...if not..it may be on alert but move on through...Or the cover scent may suck them right in if they detect "no" human scent or a small amount enough to tolerate you. again dependent on each and every individual deer. Keeping human scent minimized can register to deer as you being fruther away and or have passed by much earlier when in reality your right there.. still its up to what the individual deer will tolerate..
Good luck.