PreacherTony

LOL Germ ..... no problem with this Preacher, as I know you know

This is great info ... Makes sense if peeps are not harvesting sufficient does .... thinking about predation outside of man, the older healthier bucks are the ones that usually survive, as predators target the weak and sick ........ man I love this stuff .... thanks for the info guys ..... I think this is the first "civil" conversation that I have seen on threads of this topic ..... KP ... good moderation

Germ

PT some have a theory on this

In a balance herd it is the older bucks who got killed. Being they were at their weakest at the end of the rut.

Like I said this is theory of some

HuntingBry

Germ, you are having some communication problems my friend. I had to re-read this because at first I thought you were talking about you and "sex with a preacher." You scared me there.

On the breeding thing, I think we would all agree that it is not the genes of the younger bucks, but the lack of competition for does that leads to those "inferior" genes getting passed on.

I've read some very interesting things lately about genetics and which deer are doing the majority of the breeding and culling bucks from the herd. What was found was that with a reasonable buck to doe ratio (i.e. 1:3-1:4) which can be realisitcally achieved and maintained in a wild herd that 2.5-3.5 year old deer do the majority of the breeding. Deer older than this do not chase as much so their breeding goes down, and the younger bucks take what they can get. The study also said that to truly determine if a buck is a "cull" buck you have to let him reach and age of 4.5-6.5 at which point he has already done the majority of his breeding. So, in essence it is impossible to affect the genetics of a herd through harvesting bucks. The only way to ensure that the stronger deer's genes are passed on is to bring the buck to doe ratio into balance and allow competition for breeding rights to manage the rest as nature intended.

Germ

Huntinbry that is intersting.

markj

From whatI understand, even if the carrying capacity is OK, when the ratio is closer to 1:1, buck competition to breed is much higher. You are more likely to see bucks out and about. If you have 5 does to 1 buck there is a lot for the buck to choose from and the dominant bucks cannot get to them all in that short period. Not much competition. That makes a whole lot of sense to me.

Same way with turkeys. When there are a ton of hens, the gobblers are busy. Hard to call in.

We do not have an starving deer around here, but we have way too many does to bucks. IMO. Just from what I understand. It does make sense. So if the ratio is out of whack, kill them skinheads.

gzg38b

I sense some confusion about the way genetics works. The genes of an animal do not change as they age. That's determined in the DNA during the moment of conception. So the genes of a given buck do not "improve" as that buck ages. Every living creature on this earth has the same DNA (genes) from the moment it is concieved until the day it dies.

I really hate it when somebody preaches QDM to me and tells me that young bucks have "inferior genes"..... I quit listening to everything that person says after that....

gzg38b

Germ I agree. I think the "mulligan buck system" as you call it is the biggest reason we don't have many nice bucks around here. You can shoot a little 6 point early in the season and still have a buck tag in case bullwinkle walks by later. That's just crazy.

If we only had one buck tag, I'm sure most hunters would be alot more selective. Guys might actually think twice about popping that little forkhorn under their treestand in October. If we only had one buck tag, we'd all see more bucks and we'd have more mature bucks in the herd.

Germ

No we figured it out

What happens when a deer breeds under stress? I do not know and I have found no data on it.

Just look atour state(MI).

Why are UP deer smaller in size than Canadian deer? What happen? I have 7 mounts from my uncle 140 and above deer all from the UP shot in the 50 and 60's. What happen to the sized of the deer. The climate is close to parts of Canada why are the deer so much smaller in body weight. Why didmy unclehead to the U.P. for 7 hours when I shoot bigger deer out his backdoor? How far has UP and Northen MI fallen?

It is happing in Southern MI now, just wait if we keep the same deer management policy in time Southern MI will look like U.P. and Northen LP. Now that the bulk of hunters are in Southern MI

Is it not possible for a health deer to pass along bad genes? It happens in humans correct? Does breeding under stress up the % of passing along bad genes? Again I do not know I am asking.

BTW not one person said QDM, we were just learning from each other.

LebeauHunter

Allright Germ,

Of course we are all now on the same page about the fact that a deer's genetic makeup is set at birth,

but you are definitely on to something with the stress thing. I've been reading up and found the following from Deer Management 101 (Grant Woods):

"Suppressing sexual behavior can help young, subordinate bucks grow larger. Because their desire to breed is reduced, they spend less time participating in rutting activities like chasing, fighting and rut-marking. Instead of using valuable body resources during the rut, young bucks spend the fall feeding. Hence, they can put on additional weight and antler growth the following spring instead of replacing resources lost during the rut. . . . Young bucks receiving this growth opportunity have a much better chance of becoming larger bucks at maturity and more capble of becoming dominant." The book goes on to compare a malnourished kid in a third world country to a farm kid from Nebraska. Who knows what the genetic potential of the third world kid is?

The idea I was talking about that an imbalanced buck doe ratio can have on genetics (as opposed to deer not realizing their genetic potential) is also discussed:

"In a healthy, balanced herd, most large, agressive bucks that attain dominant status have favorable genes. Apparently, resistance to disease (health), large body size, and an aggressive nature are usually 'good characteristics favored by natural selcection. By breeding most of the does, these dominant bucks pass along their 'good' genetic traits."

This is a large post, but just wanted to see if we could come to some agreement on this stuff. There are a lot of good reasons to kill does and pass on small bucks, and the ones above are just a few.

Germ

LebeauHunter


That is exactly what i was trying to say thank you!!!

I am going to get that book. Sorry for the confusion, your anaolgy was perfect about the Kids and what i was string to say.

Thank you for being patient with me, I am from MI[8D]