Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
04-09-2007, 12:37 PM
#111
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,288
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
ORIGINAL: BigJ12
Sliver,
Just want you and all the others that I don't agree with about crossbows to knowthat none of this is taken to heart and it's just healthy debate........I still disagree though.
Sliver,
Just want you and all the others that I don't agree with about crossbows to knowthat none of this is taken to heart and it's just healthy debate........I still disagree though.
You know I always enjoy your posts, you take the time to break the subject at hand down enough, so thateveryone understands your point, and pick your words carefully not to insult anyone, no matter what the topic is. I, and I'm sure other members on this forum appreciate it.
No,I would not pee in your ear.........and yes, I still disagree.
04-09-2007, 01:06 PM
#112
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Findlay, Ohio
Posts: 3,286
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
ORIGINAL: Sliverflicker
- States that have allowed there use, many for years, have not had their seasons effected negatively in any way. You can hunt with YOUR bow of choice in Ohio for like 3 months - any many travel there (from anti xbow states) to do so every year. Theres Ohio again, How many deer hunters are in the state of Ohio?
- States that have allowed there use, many for years, have not had their seasons effected negatively in any way. You can hunt with YOUR bow of choice in Ohio for like 3 months - any many travel there (from anti xbow states) to do so every year. Theres Ohio again, How many deer hunters are in the state of Ohio?
04-09-2007, 01:12 PM
#113
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
Fill in the blank.
One fires a gun by squeezing a trigger.
One fires a crossbow by squeezing a trigger.
One fires a mechanically released compound by squeezing a_________.
If being fired like a gun is a primary reason from banning something from archery season, then a whole lot of guys need to say bye-bye to their releases. Otherwise, it's an invalid argument.
One fires a gun by squeezing a trigger.
One fires a crossbow by squeezing a trigger.
One fires a mechanically released compound by squeezing a_________.
If being fired like a gun is a primary reason from banning something from archery season, then a whole lot of guys need to say bye-bye to their releases. Otherwise, it's an invalid argument.
04-09-2007, 10:15 PM
#114
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,288
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
ORIGINAL: Arthur P
Fill in the blank.
One fires a gun by squeezing a trigger.
One fires a crossbow by squeezing a trigger.
One fires a mechanically released compound by squeezing a_________.
If being fired like a gun is a primary reason from banning something from archery season, then a whole lot of guys need to say bye-bye to their releases. Otherwise, it's an invalid argument.
Fill in the blank.
One fires a gun by squeezing a trigger.
One fires a crossbow by squeezing a trigger.
One fires a mechanically released compound by squeezing a_________.
If being fired like a gun is a primary reason from banning something from archery season, then a whole lot of guys need to say bye-bye to their releases. Otherwise, it's an invalid argument.
The draw or cocking: (movement) you all say its not an issue, but anyone that has spent more than a season in the woods, knows it is.
The holding it back: No physical or muscular activity involved in a xbow, and is cocked, locked and held there till the snow melts in the spring.
The multiple shooting positions: standing, sitting, kneeling, sitting on the ground, and prone, all braced! Hell if you want to get fancy you caneven shoot it over your head, from the hip, behind the back, and yes up side down standing on your head!
Thats3 things, each an issue in itself.
Then there is the shot: First off its fired from the shoulder the same as a rifle, second: once the bolt is layed in the track, that is imbeded in the stock where it has no way to be torqued or no where to go except stright down the track once fired, combined with therelease or trigger also imbeded in the stock eliminating the same anchoring point, You have taken the archer out of the picture!
To me those are enough reasons to keep the xbow out of the archery season, unless you are Handicapped and can not shoot a bow!
04-10-2007, 04:32 AM
#115
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
How many times must we go over these same points, Silver??
99% let-off. You can draw as soon as the deer is spotted, well before it can see any movement. And then....
99% let-off. When you're only holding 7/10ths of a pound back, the physcal activity is minimal. Especially when you rest the bottom cam of the bow on something so you don't have to hold the bow up.
I well rememberthe P&Y 65% let-off ruledebates on this very forum. The overriding sentiment was that let-off had absolutely NO bearing on hunting challenge. If let-off is a non issue then that point of view must apply equally tothe crossbow. In fact, I made this very argument in favor of the 65% rule but we all know how well THAT went.
It's been a long darn time since I saw anyone shoot any weapon at any game animalfrom the prone position or behind the back, or sitting on the ground, or standing on his head WHILE PERCHED IN A TREE STAND!
I haven't found any reliable estimates about what percentage of all hunters use treestands nowadays but, according to the Treestand Manufacturers Association, their members crank out 1.5-2 million treestands per year. That's a bunch of treestands! I know I'm the onlyperson in our archery club that does NOT own a treestand. I assume it would be safe to say the overwhelming majority of deer hunters use treestands, so any argument about shooting position is, for all practical purposes,a non issue.
Edit: Just for the record, trying to shoot a crossbow from behind the back or while standing on one's head is dangerous to the point of being idiotic. So I hope you were just being facetious when you came up with those two 'shooting positions.'
I also remember a good many discussions about technology where most argued that any bit of technology that aided in an accurate shot was not only okay but ethically DEMANDED.So, how canthose same peopleuse that argument to condemn the crossbow?
No sir. Considering the current state of the art in compound technology and hunting methods, unless you apply those same arguments to the compound, they become hypocritical. But even if you, personally, do apply those arguments against the compound, you'll find yourself butting heads with the majority. You'll be brandedby our bretheren here as an anti-compound terrorist. Believe me, I've ridden in that boat many a time.
The draw or cocking: (movement) you all say its not an issue, but anyone that has spent more than a season in the woods, knows it is.
The holding it back: No physical or muscular activity involved in a xbow, and is cocked, locked and held there till the snow melts in the spring.
I well rememberthe P&Y 65% let-off ruledebates on this very forum. The overriding sentiment was that let-off had absolutely NO bearing on hunting challenge. If let-off is a non issue then that point of view must apply equally tothe crossbow. In fact, I made this very argument in favor of the 65% rule but we all know how well THAT went.
The multiple shooting positions: standing, sitting, kneeling, sitting on the ground, and prone, all braced! Hell if you want to get fancy you caneven shoot it over your head, from the hip, behind the back, and yes up side down standing on your head!
I haven't found any reliable estimates about what percentage of all hunters use treestands nowadays but, according to the Treestand Manufacturers Association, their members crank out 1.5-2 million treestands per year. That's a bunch of treestands! I know I'm the onlyperson in our archery club that does NOT own a treestand. I assume it would be safe to say the overwhelming majority of deer hunters use treestands, so any argument about shooting position is, for all practical purposes,a non issue.
Edit: Just for the record, trying to shoot a crossbow from behind the back or while standing on one's head is dangerous to the point of being idiotic. So I hope you were just being facetious when you came up with those two 'shooting positions.'
Then there is the shot: First off its fired from the shoulder the same as a rifle, second: once the bolt is layed in the track, that is imbeded in the stock where it has no way to be torqued or no where to go except stright down the track once fired, combined with therelease or trigger also imbeded in the stock eliminating the same anchoring point, You have taken the archer out of the picture!
No sir. Considering the current state of the art in compound technology and hunting methods, unless you apply those same arguments to the compound, they become hypocritical. But even if you, personally, do apply those arguments against the compound, you'll find yourself butting heads with the majority. You'll be brandedby our bretheren here as an anti-compound terrorist. Believe me, I've ridden in that boat many a time.
04-10-2007, 09:47 AM
#116
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,288
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
ORIGINAL: Arthur P
How many times must we go over these same points, Silver??
99% let-off. You can draw as soon as the deer is spotted, well before it can see any movement. And then....
You have 60 seconds or less, and thats a stretch!
99% let-off. When you're only holding 7/10ths of a pound back, the physcal activity is minimal. Especially when you rest the bottom cam of the bow on something so you don't have to hold the bow up.
Again you have less than 60 seconds to get off a good shot, with an Xbow braced on the knee, you can hold in the shooting position till the moon comes up! And I hope your kidding about resting the cam on something.
I well rememberthe P&Y 65% let-off ruledebates on this very forum. The overriding sentiment was that let-off had absolutely NO bearing on hunting challenge. If let-off is a non issue then that point of view must apply equally tothe crossbow. In fact, I made this very argument in favor of the 65% rule but we all know how well THAT went.
Not only is the let-off, which is 0 an issue, it is held at 0 indefanetly.
It's been a long darn time since I saw anyone shoot any weapon at any game animalfrom the prone position or behind the back, or sitting on the ground, or standing on his head WHILE PERCHED IN A TREE STAND!
Come on now Arthur, the prone is the most stable position of all shoulder fired weapons, and if I was ground hunting it would be my position of choice, sitting on the ground with the Xbow braced on my knee would be second, as for the fancy shooting positions thay were minchioned in jest to show how easy a Xbow is to shoot, surely you dont think I ment for anyone to shoot at deer, from a tree stand while standing on their head.
I haven't found any reliable estimates about what percentage of all hunters use treestands nowadays but, according to the Treestand Manufacturers Association, their members crank out 1.5-2 million treestands per year. That's a bunch of treestands! I know I'm the onlyperson in our archery club that does NOT own a treestand. I assume it would be safe to say the overwhelming majority of deer hunters use treestands, so any argument about shooting position is, for all practical purposes,a non issue.
I own 8 tree stands, and use them 2/3 of the time, and my wife and youngest son (28) hunt from the ground.
Treestands do not change the fact of the advantages a crossbow has, or how a crossbow is shot!
Edit: Just for the record, trying to shoot a crossbow from behind the back or while standing on one's head is dangerous to the point of being idiotic. So I hope you were just being facetious when you came up with those two 'shooting positions.'
Well I never tried it standing on my head, but back when I was on the skeet and trap team I use to shoot plates, from the hip, between the legs, over my shoulder, and yes from behind my back. You can call it idiotic if you like, others called it impressive! I dont suggest anyone doing it, but yes it can be done. But just so I'm not posting false information, a friend of mine is handicapped and has one, I will pick it up next week and try it ( I helped him get his permit ). I willlet you know if I hurt myself!
I also remember a good many discussions about technology where most argued that any bit of technology that aided in an accurate shot was not only okay but ethically DEMANDED.So, how canthose same peopleuse that argument to condemn the crossbow?
If that is the case we would have a General hunting season were you would be allowed to use all weapons, including High Powerd Rifles.
No sir. Considering the current state of the art in compound technology and hunting methods, unless you apply those same arguments to the compound, they become hypocritical. But even if you, personally, do apply those arguments against the compound, you'll find yourself butting heads with the majority. You'll be brandedby our bretheren here as an anti-compound terrorist. Believe me, I've ridden in that boat many a time.
How many times must we go over these same points, Silver??
The draw or cocking: (movement) you all say its not an issue, but anyone that has spent more than a season in the woods, knows it is.
99% let-off. You can draw as soon as the deer is spotted, well before it can see any movement. And then....
You have 60 seconds or less, and thats a stretch!
The holding it back: No physical or muscular activity involved in a xbow, and is cocked, locked and held there till the snow melts in the spring.
Again you have less than 60 seconds to get off a good shot, with an Xbow braced on the knee, you can hold in the shooting position till the moon comes up! And I hope your kidding about resting the cam on something.
I well rememberthe P&Y 65% let-off ruledebates on this very forum. The overriding sentiment was that let-off had absolutely NO bearing on hunting challenge. If let-off is a non issue then that point of view must apply equally tothe crossbow. In fact, I made this very argument in favor of the 65% rule but we all know how well THAT went.
Not only is the let-off, which is 0 an issue, it is held at 0 indefanetly.
The multiple shooting positions: standing, sitting, kneeling, sitting on the ground, and prone, all braced! Hell if you want to get fancy you caneven shoot it over your head, from the hip, behind the back, and yes up side down standing on your head!
Come on now Arthur, the prone is the most stable position of all shoulder fired weapons, and if I was ground hunting it would be my position of choice, sitting on the ground with the Xbow braced on my knee would be second, as for the fancy shooting positions thay were minchioned in jest to show how easy a Xbow is to shoot, surely you dont think I ment for anyone to shoot at deer, from a tree stand while standing on their head.
I haven't found any reliable estimates about what percentage of all hunters use treestands nowadays but, according to the Treestand Manufacturers Association, their members crank out 1.5-2 million treestands per year. That's a bunch of treestands! I know I'm the onlyperson in our archery club that does NOT own a treestand. I assume it would be safe to say the overwhelming majority of deer hunters use treestands, so any argument about shooting position is, for all practical purposes,a non issue.
I own 8 tree stands, and use them 2/3 of the time, and my wife and youngest son (28) hunt from the ground.
Treestands do not change the fact of the advantages a crossbow has, or how a crossbow is shot!
Edit: Just for the record, trying to shoot a crossbow from behind the back or while standing on one's head is dangerous to the point of being idiotic. So I hope you were just being facetious when you came up with those two 'shooting positions.'
Well I never tried it standing on my head, but back when I was on the skeet and trap team I use to shoot plates, from the hip, between the legs, over my shoulder, and yes from behind my back. You can call it idiotic if you like, others called it impressive! I dont suggest anyone doing it, but yes it can be done. But just so I'm not posting false information, a friend of mine is handicapped and has one, I will pick it up next week and try it ( I helped him get his permit ). I willlet you know if I hurt myself!
Then there is the shot: First off its fired from the shoulder the same as a rifle, second: once the bolt is layed in the track, that is imbeded in the stock where it has no way to be torqued or no where to go except stright down the track once fired, combined with therelease or trigger also imbeded in the stock eliminating the same anchoring point, You have taken the archer out of the picture!
If that is the case we would have a General hunting season were you would be allowed to use all weapons, including High Powerd Rifles.
No sir. Considering the current state of the art in compound technology and hunting methods, unless you apply those same arguments to the compound, they become hypocritical. But even if you, personally, do apply those arguments against the compound, you'll find yourself butting heads with the majority. You'll be brandedby our bretheren here as an anti-compound terrorist. Believe me, I've ridden in that boat many a time.
04-10-2007, 11:27 AM
#119
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3,145
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
Hi Sliver,
I think the original question posed by this thread has been answered, and I think everyone will agree that crossbows are considered archery.
I think from your posts that the beef you have with crossbows pertains to their inclusion in the archery season for big game. If I am wrong please correct me.
When I take a step back and look at it from the point of view of management, I would have to say that crossbows should be included in the archery segment. My reasoning is that while there are differences in archery weapons, the dispairity of difference is not great enough to create a separate season or even banish crossbows to the general season.
A flintlock or matchlock blackpwder rifle technology is far inferior to modern blackpowder rifles, yet they are included in the same season(at least they are here in LA). The technology of the longbow is also far inferior to that of compounds or crossbows, but since they use essentially the same method of launching a projectile and have a similar effective range, I see no tangible reason to legally separate crossbows from archery season.
If we started chopping up the deer season based on smaller and smaller increments of weapon effectiveness, you can bet our representatives would find new ways to charge us more for permits and tags to do the things we are already doing anyway, it would just cost us more to do them.
Just for clarity, I do think crossbows offer a slight advantage over vertical bows for hunting deer.
I think the original question posed by this thread has been answered, and I think everyone will agree that crossbows are considered archery.
I think from your posts that the beef you have with crossbows pertains to their inclusion in the archery season for big game. If I am wrong please correct me.
When I take a step back and look at it from the point of view of management, I would have to say that crossbows should be included in the archery segment. My reasoning is that while there are differences in archery weapons, the dispairity of difference is not great enough to create a separate season or even banish crossbows to the general season.
A flintlock or matchlock blackpwder rifle technology is far inferior to modern blackpowder rifles, yet they are included in the same season(at least they are here in LA). The technology of the longbow is also far inferior to that of compounds or crossbows, but since they use essentially the same method of launching a projectile and have a similar effective range, I see no tangible reason to legally separate crossbows from archery season.
If we started chopping up the deer season based on smaller and smaller increments of weapon effectiveness, you can bet our representatives would find new ways to charge us more for permits and tags to do the things we are already doing anyway, it would just cost us more to do them.
Just for clarity, I do think crossbows offer a slight advantage over vertical bows for hunting deer.
04-10-2007, 12:25 PM
#120
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
Mercy, Silver! If you can't hold 7/10ths of a pound at full draw for more than 60 seconds, maybe you need to get yourself a crossbow permit. You're an invalid! [8D]Maybe you don't own a 99% let-off bow yourself, but there are such things on the market -Concept Archery'sConcept 99 for instance - and, according to the voice of the majority, that's okay. I know that's unfortunate for your argument, but....
Here's you an example of a bow pretty much anyone can shoot while sitting flat on the ground.20.5" axle to axle and weighs 2.3 lbs bare. http://www.libertyarchery.com/index.html
Just as a point of reference, the axle to axle length for a Horton HD 150 crossbow is 26" and it weighs 7.5 pounds bare.
Darton used to make a bow that you could shoot from the prone position. It had a handle and forearm brace arrangement just like a wrist rocket slingshot but with the limbs mounted horizontally. I think it was before it's time because it didn't last more than a couple of years.That design could easily be brought back. So there's another mark against your prone position argument. Here's a pic of it.
See? You don't need to be arguing with me. You need to turn around and speak to the guys behind you. Consumer demand has broughttechnology to the point where the crossbow can be so favorably compared to compounds. I fought against it for a long time. Now you've either got to talk them into backtracking away from the technology they want (I've given up on it)or you've got to start accepting a new order of things.
I think you've got a good plan there though, Silver. Borrow your friend's xbow and take a test spin with it. Maybe shoot a few rounds of 3D and see if you can even come close towhat you can do with the compound.It's always better to have an opinion based on experience rather than prejudice. Just don't let on that you don't consider him an archer. Might tick him off something fierce.
But please, spare us the exhibition shooter tricks. We ARE talking bowhunting here, are we not?
Here's you an example of a bow pretty much anyone can shoot while sitting flat on the ground.20.5" axle to axle and weighs 2.3 lbs bare. http://www.libertyarchery.com/index.html
Just as a point of reference, the axle to axle length for a Horton HD 150 crossbow is 26" and it weighs 7.5 pounds bare.
Darton used to make a bow that you could shoot from the prone position. It had a handle and forearm brace arrangement just like a wrist rocket slingshot but with the limbs mounted horizontally. I think it was before it's time because it didn't last more than a couple of years.That design could easily be brought back. So there's another mark against your prone position argument. Here's a pic of it.
See? You don't need to be arguing with me. You need to turn around and speak to the guys behind you. Consumer demand has broughttechnology to the point where the crossbow can be so favorably compared to compounds. I fought against it for a long time. Now you've either got to talk them into backtracking away from the technology they want (I've given up on it)or you've got to start accepting a new order of things.
I think you've got a good plan there though, Silver. Borrow your friend's xbow and take a test spin with it. Maybe shoot a few rounds of 3D and see if you can even come close towhat you can do with the compound.It's always better to have an opinion based on experience rather than prejudice. Just don't let on that you don't consider him an archer. Might tick him off something fierce.
But please, spare us the exhibition shooter tricks. We ARE talking bowhunting here, are we not?