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11-29-2002, 10:49 PM

#81

Big Country

Nontypical Buck

Join Date: Feb 2003

Location: New Stanton PA USA

Posts: 2,213

RE: Trophy Hunting?

kgkoon, while I only shoot does and big bucks(140" and up)I certainly enjoy hunting for all the same reasons as you do! I get the most enjoyment from just watching everything there is to see while on stand. I love listening to my hunting buddies stories from their days hunt. I really enjoy seeing a young hunter shooting a deer, any deer to make them happy.
As far as trophy hunters being "competitive hunters", perception is a funny thing. I can objectively look at this statement and see your point. I could also make the same statement about a seasoned hunter with many kills under his belt and say that they are the competitive hunters. They MUST KILL a buck, any buck, no matter how small, to prove they can kill.
Perception is a funny thing.
And before someone gets the wrong perception that I feel superior to anyone because I shoot "trophy bucks only" allow me to point out that I took over 50 small to medium sized bucks with a bow before I decided to hunt the way I do now. For me, it was the best decision I ever made. I no longer feel the need to kill a buck just for the sake of doing it.
One other plus is that it is a good excuse for not tagging out, as big bucks don`t usually walk past you on the first morning of the season opener.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>I get much more time in the timber now, and really enjoy it more.
If you enjoy shooting small bucks, if that is what truly makes you happy, then that is what you should do. My way has sound game management behind it, but the herd will survive without everyone jumping on board.

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

11-30-2002, 04:20 AM

#82

davidmil

Dominant Buck

Join Date: Feb 2003

Location: Blossvale, New York

Posts: 21,199

RE: Trophy Hunting?

KGkoon.... Thank you. You pretty much summed it up. I'm simply a hunter. I shoot them because they're legal and I enjoy it. I'm not in it to watch the deer. If I wish to be a bird watcher I can reduce the weight of my pack and just carry the binos. I guess I'll have to move to Illinois where the 2 and a half year old deer are so stupid you can throw rocks at them and kill them. How many of you people are fortunated enough to have stupid deer around.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Those of you who say you'll only shoot 140 class deer or larger sure do lead a sheltered life. You hunt some public ground in NY, Maryland or PA and you'd never have to shoot an arrow. I can almost guarantee you'd never see an animal worthy of your bother. Don't bring any rocks to hunt with either as you'll never get a Rock Shot.

11-30-2002, 05:18 AM

#83

CAJUNBOWHNTR

Join Date: Feb 2003

Location: Walker LA USA

Posts: 443

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Is practicing QDM and letting 1 1/2 old bucks walk trophy hunting? Our area will never produce many B&C deer.We used to shoot everthing that was legal on our lease.We killed alot of young bucks.But that's pretty much all we killed.Probably 60-75% of our 1 1/2 bucks were killed each year.Our buck to doe ratio was 10-1.We saw no rutting sign,none.Our herd was way out of wack.We can legally kill 5 does.If you can shoot 5 does why would you NEED to kill a forkhorn buck?Letting a deer walk knowing you could have killed him can be just as satisfying.The indians called it counting coup.Now I do hunt to kill deer and between me and my sons we kill around 6-8 deer each year.But since we have stopped shooting juvenile bucks our overall hunting experience has increased greatly.My 17 year old son has killed more mature rack deer in the last 5 years than I killed in the previous ten years hunting our lease.Now I have seen guys go overboard with the "trophy" mentality.I don't buy the don't shoot it if your not going to mount it philosiphy.But shooting does and letting young bucks rech maturity has created a more natural balanced deer herd on our lease.We actually see bucks chasing does now.We see a harder more defined rut.Back when our ratio was 10 to 1 I once saw a doe with a spotted fawn in december.That's how out of balance our herd was.Our deer weigh more now,they're healthier.Praticing QDM does not necessarily mean trophy hunting.It's about having a balanced age structure and healthy deer herd.I was'nt a believer in it at first.But I have seen first hand the benefits of QDM.

BIlly

WHACKEM N STACKEM

11-30-2002, 06:38 AM

#84

BOWFANATIC

Nontypical Buck

Join Date: Feb 2003

Location: Wisconsin

Posts: 3,903

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Last year I did ask one question, that I have yet to see a legitimate answer to.
If you are a full grown man, with several smaller bucks under your belt, why would you possibly WANT to shoot smaller bucks?

I forgot to add this....BOWDACIOUS, you did the right thing bud. If, and when hunting for only big bucks turns into no fun for me, I will do whatever it takes(within the law) to bring the fun back into it!

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

Edited by - Big Country on 11/29/2002 20:56:46
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Your question was answered several times! In fact , you answered your own question with your reply to BOWDACIOUS.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

11-30-2002, 06:47 AM

#85

BOWFANATIC

Nontypical Buck

Join Date: Feb 2003

Location: Wisconsin

Posts: 3,903

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Now I have seen guys go overboard with the "trophy" mentality.I don't buy the don't shoot it if your not going to mount it philosiphy.
WHACKEM N STACKEM
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Neither do I!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>http://community.webshots.com/user/1bowfanatic

11-30-2002, 08:40 AM

#86

RICHIE3

Join Date: Feb 2003

Location: saint joseph missouri USA

Posts: 548

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote><img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>I have noticed that you are not responding to any of these arguments I have put in, whats up?<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Heheheheh!!! This one is hilarious!!! This is your "tell" or "sign" of weakness towards this debate! Do not confuse my lack of a quick response time to being scared. I have other things that need tending too, beside this thread.
You claim victory before the war is over.

SW Iowa Hunter,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Why is antler size so important to your hunting?
Can you see that it is not that important to alot of people?
What worries me about these threads is that alot of young people are on this site and get ripped for shooting something that is not big enough.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Antler size is important for the quality of the herd in my area. Mark my words, the experienced hunters that it is not important to, will wind up in the same boat as the states with point restrictions. I can see that it is not important to many here, this is the point or message I am trying to get out there. Keep shooting smaller bucks, and regulation from doing so will soon follow. I have never "ripped" any youngster from shooting a small buck, but if an experienced hunter harvests one and then proceeds to challenge the folks who thought he did wrong, I will jump right in and give my two cents worth!!
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Healthy deer herds? Nature will take care of that? People argue about habitat man is destroying and justify more intrusion by man with QDM with this argument.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I think it is great that you and others have chosen to only shoot mature bucks, I won't argue that this leads to better genetics and healthier deer ultimately.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Wow! Let's not talk about me chasing my tail anymore. These two quotes do enough of it already. First you are condemning QDM practices, and then turn around and agree with the very point of this argument that I am making!!!
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>QDM takes a large amount of land to be effective. You cannot effectively manage a deer herd without control over the land they are on. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> This is not true. QDM can be practiced and has been practiced well with one hundred acres or less.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Enjoy the right you have to hunt, and let everyone else enjoy theirs. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> This is what I am trying to accomplish by helping out the herd with QDM techniques so everyone can enjoy it in the future. <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I went the trophy-hunting route for a while you know what happened four years in a row. The buck I was hunting ended up in the grill of someone's car. No joke. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> This argument proves that QDM works. If you've had four quality bucks hit by cars four years running, I would say it works.

Tazman, <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> RICHIE and all others, I see RICHIE has acknowledged that in certain instances, taking a dink/scrub bucks, is beneficial to the overall herd in QDM standards, there are some other reasons posted here that jusify the taking of lesser bucks. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> This is a nice try at trying to make me look foolish, why don't you go back and post my entire answer to the senario that you described earlier? It is not how you make it out to be now. Scrub bucks are different from younger bucks, and I state this and how I would react to this situation. <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I will say this though, if next year I notice a big increase in basket 8's, I may just take one. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Just keep it up, and antler restrictions are soon to follow. If they are scrub bucks that are not developing into quality animals, by all means, take them out. But, just because there are numerous small basket rack bucks, does not necessarily mean that they are all scrub bucks.

Skeeter, <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> In this given situation, I would tag the "scrub", since I have a good shot opp and three tags, knowing the area, that he really does nothing to my herd for the buck-side, and I don't need more does. So, his worth is minimal. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> This is exactly what I said in my answer.

JRW,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I shoot what I shoot because I choose to. Justification to you or anyone else is not even on the radar of consideration. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> For the sake of this debate, it is justifiable, if you choose not to justify your answers, kindly step aside. <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> No, you don't need to hunt. You won't die if you don't shoot a deer. For some reason, I highly doubt they starve to death if you don't kill a deer or two for them. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> You are wrong about this statement, I do need to harvest animals for the farmers I hunt on. If not, it puts them in financial strain. I'm sorry I can't prove that fact, but it is a fact.

Once again, your argument comparing this debate to gun ownership, PETA, or Sarah Brady, is not a good example to compare to.

Skeeter,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> That last thing I (or you) want or need is to be told...no that is all wrong. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> This will indeed happen if experienced hunters keep choosing to harvest young bucks.

Big Country,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> If you are a full grown man, with several smaller bucks under your belt, why would you possible WANT to shoot smaller bucks? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> This is the question I have posed several times. The only so-called answer that I receive, is that they "choose to". This type of thinking will eventually lead to necessary restrictions by state agencies to help out the deer herd again.

kgkoon,
You can still enjoy all the activities of a deer camp without having to shoot smaller bucks. I enjoy seeing a youngster get excited about shooting a buck as much as the next guy. But, this argument or debate is about experienced hunters shooting small bucks.

Big Country,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I really enjoy seeing a young hunter shoot a deer, any deer to make them happy. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> I do too, once again, see my response above. <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I no longer feel the need to kill a buck just for the sake of doing it. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> I'm glad to hear that, I'm sorry to say this is the thinking of most on this thread and in the hunting community as a whole.

Davidmil,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I shoot them because they're legal and I enjoy it. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Well, my friend, enjoy it now because it won't last. This is the sure way to antler restrictions. <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Those of you who say you'll only shoot 140 class deer or larger sure do lead a sheltered life. You hunt some public ground in NY, Maryland or PA, and you'd never have to shoot an arrow. I can almost guarantee you'd never see an animal worthy of your bother. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Why is this? Sounds to me like they could use a good dose of QDM techniques. If everybody (experienced hunters) were on the same page on this one, this wouldn't be the case in these areas.

CAJUNBOWHNTR,
Great overall post!

BOWFANATIC,
This question was not answered for the sake of this debate. A debate is having a stance and backing it up with factual information. Not just an answer like "I choose to".

On a side note, I would like to thank my wife for typing these responses for me! All answers are strictly my own, and without her help in typing them, my fingers would be bloody and I would not even be half way done!!! God, I love her so!!

She also thinks that if we all put the same effort into chores around the house as we do here in this debate, the world would be a much nicer place for everyone...........especially the wives of the group!!!<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - richie3 on 11/30/2002 09:52:17

11-30-2002, 10:05 AM

#87

BOWFANATIC

Nontypical Buck

Join Date: Feb 2003

Location: Wisconsin

Posts: 3,903

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Just keep it up, and antler restrictions are soon to follow. If they are scrub bucks that are not developing into quality animals, by all means, take them out. But, just because there are numerous small basket rack bucks, does not necessarily mean that they are all scrub bucks.

You keep saying if hunters dont stop shooting young bucks , antler restrictions are soon to come? Please explain this! The states that have imposed antler restrictions have had low doe harvests , so they did what they believe will increase the doe harvest period! If I live in a state that has an excellent doe harvest and yet we still have a large amount of young bucks harvested , what will your warning be?

You are wrong about this statement, I do need to harvest animals for the farmers I hunt on. If not, it puts them in financial strain. I'm sorry I can't prove that fact, but it is a fact.

How does it put them in financial strain? You already condemned the farmers in my area (which you know nothing about) for shooting any type of deer because of crop damage. Which btw was a very ligitimate answer to your question which you chose to downplay with zero factual evidence. Who's answering questions based on emotion???

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you are a full grown man, with several smaller bucks under your belt, why would you possible WANT to shoot smaller bucks?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the question I have posed several times. The only so-called answer that I receive, is that they "choose to". This type of thinking will eventually lead to necessary restrictions by state agencies to help out the deer herd again.

Still avoiding the answers to your question? You've been answered several times and yet you pick out the vague , yet most important answer to your question , simply because of it's vagueness.

BOWFANATIC,
This question was not answered for the sake of this debate. A debate is having a stance and backing it up with factual information. Not just an answer like "I choose to".

Once again , read all replies and dont skip the ones that give true arguement to your "debate". And for the record , I've given you answers other than "I choose to" (<did I even say that?) What type of factual evidence are you looking for? You haven't provided any! Do you want to see the crop damage reports in my area? Shall I provide you with names and phone numbers of the farmers in my area so you can tell them their all wrong? How much time have you spent in our national forests (northern Wi) to make an educated statement towards a hunter who shoots the first buck he sees because it might very well be the first buck he's seen in a few years? And dont say , why is that? We're talking about vast forests which dont hold the deer numbers that farm country does?

11-30-2002, 10:43 AM

#88

JRW

Nontypical Buck

Join Date: Feb 2003

Location: Montgomery IL USA

Posts: 1,231

RE: Trophy Hunting?

"For the sake of this debate, it is justifiable, if you choose not to justify your answers, kindly step aside.

I'm not sure what part of "personal choice" isn't getting understood here, but I'm not fluent in any language aside from English. I can recomend a good translation site, if need be. <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

"You are wrong about this statement, I do need to harvest animals for the farmers I hunt on. If not, it puts them in financial strain. I'm sorry I can't prove that fact, but it is a fact."

Yep. Pull the other one.

JRW

11-30-2002, 11:05 AM

#89

RICHIE3

Join Date: Feb 2003

Location: saint joseph missouri USA

Posts: 548

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

You keep saying if hunters dont stop shooting young bucks , antler restrictions are soon to come? Please explain this! The states that have imposed antler restrictions have had low doe harvests , so they did what they believe will increase the doe harvest period! If I live in a state that has an excellent doe harvest and yet we still have a large amount of young bucks harvested , what will your warning be?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Number one, and once again, This debate is about experienced hunters shooting young bucks or not. Not all hunters.

The states that have antler restrictions have had low doe harvests?????Please explain what type of harvests they have been having then!! If the number of does harvested is very low, this must mean one thing, that too many bucks are being harvested!!! So, an imposed antler restriction is just that---a restricition that limits the hunter to what they can harvest legally!! This is what I have been saying all along!! If hunters do not change their ways, antler restrictions are soon to follow!!! I don't want it to get to a point in my state to where more restrictions are imposed!! Foremost and first of all, for all of the young or inexperienced hunters who need to take smaller bucks for their first kill!!! The last thing I want to do is tell a kid that he/she cannot shoot that buck in front of them because it is too small!!! But again, this thread is about the experienced hunter, not the young and inexperienced hunters!!!!!

The warning will be the number of buck sightings all together, getting less and less. Mark my words, sooner or later, just about every state will impose antler restrctions due to this thinking that refuses to be changed.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
How does it put them in financial strain? You already condemned the farmers in my area (which you know nothing about) for shooting any type of deer because of crop damage. Which btw was a very ligitimate answer to your question which you chose to downplay with zero factual evidence. Who's answering questions based on emotion???<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I am answering the question, and it is not based on emotion. I never condemned "your area farmers" for anything. I stated that I am far from a stranger to the farming community, and the farmers that I know have never complained about crop damage to a degree to where it will be on the verge of breaking them. I know it, and they know it. Deer do minimal damage to crops, but so do racoons, squirrels, possums, crows, ect. Don't twist my words around.

There are more than just crop farmers in n.w. Missouri, but the bulk of them are. It just so happens that the people that I hunt on, were left the farm thru family that has since passed. To keep it in the family, they are choosing to try to make it on their own, and are having a difficult time of doing so. If I can harvest my 3 does a year during rifle season to help them out, so be it, whether you believe it or not. This is why I need to hunt!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Still avoiding the answers to your question? You've been answered several times and yet you pick out the vague , yet most important answer to your question , simply because of it's vagueness.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I am not avoiding anything. I know that it is a right for one to shoot what ever they choose. I am just saying, and have always said, that if experienced hunters do not change their ways, more restrictions are soon to follow.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Once again , read all replies and dont skip the ones that give true arguement to your "debate".<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I will tell you what, let's you and I go head to head on questions and answers. You pose and number whatever question it is you would like to know an answer from me, and I will answer it. I guess highlighting and quoting every contradictary statement against me isn't good enough for you. So, you go ahead and go back thru this thread, and show me the questions I have failed to answer for you.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> And for the record , I've given you answers other than "I choose to" (<did I even say that?)<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> This is not true at all. This has been the basis of argument the "cons" or people who do not believe in QDM, have been stating all along.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> What type of factual evidence are you looking for? You haven't provided any! Do you want to see the crop damage reports in my area? Shall I provide you with names and phone numbers of the farmers in my area so you can tell them their all wrong? How much time have you spent in our national forests (northern Wi) to make an educated statement towards a hunter who shoots the first buck he sees because it might very well be the first buck he's seen in a few years? And dont say , why is that? We're talking about vast forests which dont hold the deer numbers that farm country does? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

LOL.....There you go again......Dancing around your own words when you don't even realize it!!!!

Go ahead and explain to me how the farmers in your area can have sooo much crop damage, when YOU have just got done saying that the area does not hold the deer numbers???? If you are refering to the "farm country" holding more deer and do more damage, I WILL completely disagree with you. Farmers know the game there, just as they do here!! If they do not claim some sort of loss in the name of "crop damage" or "flood damage" or something like that, they will not recieve their insurance, government subsidies, ect.!!!! I know the game well, and so do they!!!
So you can spout off and yell "crop damage" and claim to show me numbers all you want!! I know better!!! I do not blame the farmers for it either!!! They are what this country is based on in my opinion, and DESERVE all of the breaks that they can get!!!

11-30-2002, 12:10 PM

#90

davidmil

Dominant Buck

Join Date: Feb 2003

Location: Blossvale, New York

Posts: 21,199

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have noticed that you are not responding to any of these arguments I have put in, whats up?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heheheheh!!! This one is hilarious!!! This is your "tell" or "sign" of weakness towards this debate! Do not confuse my lack of a quick response time to being scared. I have other things that need tending too, beside this thread.
You claim victory before the war is over.

SW Iowa Hunter,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why is antler size so important to your hunting?
Can you see that it is not that important to alot of people?
What worries me about these threads is that alot of young people are on this site and get ripped for shooting something that is not big enough.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Antler size is important for the quality of the herd in my area. Mark my words, the experienced hunters that it is not important to, will wind up in the same boat as the states with point restrictions. I can see that it is not important to many here, this is the point or message I am trying to get out there. Keep shooting smaller bucks, and regulation from doing so will soon follow. I have never "ripped" any youngster from shooting a small buck, but if an experienced hunter harvests one and then proceeds to challenge the folks who thought he did wrong, I will jump right in and give my two cents worth!!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Healthy deer herds? Nature will take care of that? People argue about habitat man is destroying and justify more intrusion by man with QDM with this argument.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think it is great that you and others have chosen to only shoot mature bucks, I won't argue that this leads to better genetics and healthier deer ultimately.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow! Let's not talk about me chasing my tail anymore. These two quotes do enough of it already. First you are condemning QDM practices, and then turn around and agree with the very point of this argument that I am making!!!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QDM takes a large amount of land to be effective. You cannot effectively manage a deer herd without control over the land they are on.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is not true. QDM can be practiced and has been practiced well with one hundred acres or less.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Enjoy the right you have to hunt, and let everyone else enjoy theirs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what I am trying to accomplish by helping out the herd with QDM techniques so everyone can enjoy it in the future.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I went the trophy-hunting route for a while you know what happened four years in a row. The buck I was hunting ended up in the grill of someone's car. No joke.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This argument proves that QDM works. If you've had four quality bucks hit by cars four years running, I would say it works.

Tazman,
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RICHIE and all others, I see RICHIE has acknowledged that in certain instances, taking a dink/scrub bucks, is beneficial to the overall herd in QDM standards, there are some other reasons posted here that jusify the taking of lesser bucks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a nice try at trying to make me look foolish, why don't you go back and post my entire answer to the senario that you described earlier? It is not how you make it out to be now. Scrub bucks are different from younger bucks, and I state this and how I would react to this situation.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will say this though, if next year I notice a big increase in basket 8's, I may just take one.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just keep it up, and antler restrictions are soon to follow. If they are scrub bucks that are not developing into quality animals, by all means, take them out. But, just because there are numerous small basket rack bucks, does not necessarily mean that they are all scrub bucks.

Skeeter,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In this given situation, I would tag the "scrub", since I have a good shot opp and three tags, knowing the area, that he really does nothing to my herd for the buck-side, and I don't need more does. So, his worth is minimal.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is exactly what I said in my answer.

JRW,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I shoot what I shoot because I choose to. Justification to you or anyone else is not even on the radar of consideration.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For the sake of this debate, it is justifiable, if you choose not to justify your answers, kindly step aside.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, you don't need to hunt. You won't die if you don't shoot a deer. For some reason, I highly doubt they starve to death if you don't kill a deer or two for them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are wrong about this statement, I do need to harvest animals for the farmers I hunt on. If not, it puts them in financial strain. I'm sorry I can't prove that fact, but it is a fact.

Once again, your argument comparing this debate to gun ownership, PETA, or Sarah Brady, is not a good example to compare to.

Skeeter,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That last thing I (or you) want or need is to be told...no that is all wrong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This will indeed happen if experienced hunters keep choosing to harvest young bucks.

Big Country,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you are a full grown man, with several smaller bucks under your belt, why would you possible WANT to shoot smaller bucks?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the question I have posed several times. The only so-called answer that I receive, is that they "choose to". This type of thinking will eventually lead to necessary restrictions by state agencies to help out the deer herd again.

kgkoon,
You can still enjoy all the activities of a deer camp without having to shoot smaller bucks. I enjoy seeing a youngster get excited about shooting a buck as much as the next guy. But, this argument or debate is about experienced hunters shooting small bucks.

Big Country,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really enjoy seeing a young hunter shoot a deer, any deer to make them happy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do too, once again, see my response above.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I no longer feel the need to kill a buck just for the sake of doing it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm glad to hear that, I'm sorry to say this is the thinking of most on this thread and in the hunting community as a whole.

Davidmil,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I shoot them because they're legal and I enjoy it.
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Well, my friend, enjoy it now because it won't last. This is the sure way to antler restrictions.
quote:
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Those of you who say you'll only shoot 140 class deer or larger sure do lead a sheltered life. You hunt some public ground in NY, Maryland or PA, and you'd never have to shoot an arrow. I can almost guarantee you'd never see an animal worthy of your bother.
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Why is this? Sounds to me like they could use a good dose of QDM techniques. If everybody (experienced hunters) were on the same page on this one, this wouldn't be the case in these areas.

CAJUNBOWHNTR,
Great overall post!

BOWFANATIC,
This question was not answered for the sake of this debate. A debate is having a stance and backing it up with factual information. Not just an answer like "I choose to".

On a side note, I would like to thank my wife for typing these responses for me! All answers are strictly my own, and without her help in typing them, my fingers would be bloody and I would not even be half way done!!! God, I love her so!!

She also thinks that if we all put the same effort into chores around the house as we do here in this debate, the world would be a much nicer place for everyone...........especially the wives of the group!!!

Edited by - richie3 on 11/30/2002 09:52:17

BOWFANATIC
Non Typical

USA
1104 Posts Posted - 11/30/2002 : 11:05:21
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Just keep it up, and antler restrictions are soon to follow. If they are scrub bucks that are not developing into quality animals, by all means, take them out. But, just because there are numerous small basket rack bucks, does not necessarily mean that they are all scrub bucks.

You keep saying if hunters dont stop shooting young bucks , antler restrictions are soon to come? Please explain this! The states that have imposed antler restrictions have had low doe harvests , so they did what they believe will increase the doe harvest period! If I live in a state that has an excellent doe harvest and yet we still have a large amount of young bucks harvested , what will your warning be?

You are wrong about this statement, I do need to harvest animals for the farmers I hunt on. If not, it puts them in financial strain. I'm sorry I can't prove that fact, but it is a fact.

How does it put them in financial strain? You already condemned the farmers in my area (which you know nothing about) for shooting any type of deer because of crop damage. Which btw was a very ligitimate answer to your question which you chose to downplay with zero factual evidence. Who's answering questions based on emotion???

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If you are a full grown man, with several smaller bucks under your belt, why would you possible WANT to shoot smaller bucks?
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This is the question I have posed several times. The only so-called answer that I receive, is that they "choose to". This type of thinking will eventually lead to necessary restrictions by state agencies to help out the deer herd again.

Still avoiding the answers to your question? You've been answered several times and yet you pick out the vague , yet most important answer to your question , simply because of it's vagueness.

BOWFANATIC,
This question was not answered for the sake of this debate. A debate is having a stance and backing it up with factual information. Not just an answer like "I choose to".

Once again , read all replies and dont skip the ones that give true arguement to your "debate". And for the record , I've given you answers other than "I choose to" (<did I even say that?) What type of factual evidence are you looking for? You haven't provided any! Do you want to see the crop damage reports in my area? Shall I provide you with names and phone numbers of the farmers in my area so you can tell them their all wrong? How much time have you spent in our national forests (northern Wi) to make an educated statement towards a hunter who shoots the first buck he sees because it might very well be the first buck he's seen in a few years? And dont say , why is that? We're talking about vast forests which dont hold the deer numbers that farm country does?

JRW
Non Typical

USA
1897 Posts Posted - 11/30/2002 : 11:43:58
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"For the sake of this debate, it is justifiable, if you choose not to justify your answers, kindly step aside.

I'm not sure what part of "personal choice" isn't getting understood here, but I'm not fluent in any language aside from English. I can recomend a good translation site, if need be.

"You are wrong about this statement, I do need to harvest animals for the farmers I hunt on. If not, it puts them in financial strain. I'm sorry I can't prove that fact, but it is a fact."

Yep. Pull the other one.

JRW

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

There are to many QUOTES!!!!!!

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