RICHIE3

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...and our deer population is much much greater now than when I started. We used to have a draw only system that was buck only, now everyone gets an anysex tag and they are handing out extra doe tags. Doesn't seem to support your debate that it is hurting the younger generation. There are many more big bucks now than ever. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
You have missed it and don't even know it. All states have a few giants roaming around. The reason why states (like Iowa, Missouri) are selling any sex deer tags and numerous doe tags instead of &quot;buck only&quot; tags, are the exact reasons that I have stated much earlier in this thread. These states early on in their conservation for whitetail deer processes, decided that quantity was the main issue. Now they have realized that is not the case, and a quality herd is now needed. &quot;Buck only&quot; tags are now obsolete in these two states so to encourage the harvest of does. If this is not the fact, there would still be &quot;buck only&quot; tags.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>In fact it can be argued that the next generation will be hurt more by the QDM people who do not let others hunt on large pieces of ground because they are worried that someone will shot something too small for thier standards.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
This is an incorrect statement. If large bucks were numerous and everywhere, there would be no need to &quot;lock up&quot; large tracts of ground. you would be able to take large mature whitetails anywhere, everyday. Also, maybe they are just doing their part to help out the herd. why should they put in the time and effort for someone else to come in and slaughter everything that moves?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>What happens to that uncle or father or mother or whoever that wants to take thier child hunting but does not have the ground to hunt on. Public ground? I don't know about you but in Iowa the public ground isn't even safe to be on in gun season. I just got back from Wyoming antelope and mule deer hunting and can say that thier public ground isn't too safe either.

Wouldn't it be great if all the states were under QDM restrictions so that everyone would have to follow someone elses standards. Do you think antler restrictions are great? I would love to see the look on someones face (childs?) when you explain that they can not shoot that deer because someone else thinks it is too small. Maybe a trophy to them, maybe the only deer that they ever shoot? Maybe they get cancer or something happens that does not allow them to hunt anymore and those dang antler restrictions sure did a good job or preserving the quality of deer for someone else while robbing a memory from the next person. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

WOW!!!! Now we are playing the sympathy card!! O.K....I'll bite. I have as much sympathy for children, sick or healthy, or for the novice who would like to start his or hers hunting or fishing career.

I have never stated, in any single one of my posts, that youngsters or novice hunters should pass on a smaller buck. You should go back and read this entire post before making a statement like that to me. The original thread was by an experienced hunter, knowing the argumental responses were sure to follow.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Why is the size of the antlers so important to you? Is this how you grade your hunts?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I will not pull any punches. Yes, this is how I grade my hunts. This also my way of making the herd a more stable herd for everybody. It is my way of feeding the less fortunate, while keeping the herd stable. It is a proven fact, made every year by the actions of state conservation agencies across the land.



<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I am not missing the point, I in fact understand it very well.
What state of hunting is effected? The trophy hunters standards?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I am sorry, I think you are. It seems to me that the &quot;trophy hunters&quot; standards are quickly being adapted by state wildlife agencies every year. Especially when state agencies are the birthplace for Q.D.M. With all of the knowledge of the state biologists, and all of the new information that is found out every year from studies done in field research, I tend to believe them when they initiate point restrictions for a reason.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I hope my son and daughter do not get mixed up in all the ads for deer hunting telling them to shoot the big one and you will be happier only to forget about the sheer joy of being out in the woods for just the sake of hunting. The look on my face or thiers when they take an animal in its own habitat. Sit for hours waiting for the right shot so the animal doesn't suffer. The hours of practice and more hours of talking about it that it takes to harvest an animal. The time in the field with friends or the solitude away from work and worldly pressure that is relieved. I hope they enjoy the rights that others have sacraficed to give them. I hope they continue to fight for those rights. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Once again, this original post was about a experienced hunter taking a smaller buck, with an understanding of the responses that it would arise. Otherwise, he would have just stated that he shot a buck this year, in which I would have congradulated him. I will not belittle anyone who takes a smaller buck when they have the experience under their belt. But, when put in a way to where they want a debate about it, I will not miss the opportunity to disperse my beliefs.


<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I don't think you understand, I think you missed my point, if you must grade your hunts or future hunts by the size of the deer you are missing the point. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Well...I think the opposite about yourself. If you are a novice hunter, take anything you like, if you are an experienced hunter, you should give my way a try for a year or two and see the number in bigger buck sightings increase.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>You will not find any answers to the questions you keep asking because you are choose to dismiss any answers that you do not want to hear. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
No.. That is not true. I have disected, quoted points against my arguments, on every post to the contrary. I have dodged no questions, just countered them with direct answers.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>That is the answer to all your questions.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
That may be what you settle for in life, but not me.

I have to go now for awhile, but I will be back on later today to respond again, to you last post. I will not dodge anything, but i cannot sit on the ccomputer all day. See ya'll in a few hours!!

Edited by - richie3 on 11/29/2002 11:36:58

Tazman

RICHIE and all others, I see RICHIE has acknowledged that in certain instances taking dink/scrub bucks is beneficial to the overall herd in QDM standards, there are some other reasons posted here that justify the taking of lesser bucks.

I will only speak for the area I hunt when I say the following, we need to thin the does, no matter what age(except fawns)drastically simply due to over population, but we also need to take inferior bucks from areas where known larger bucks reside to keep the inferior bucks from breeding.

I do and will allow basket bucks walk that are immature, but I have no problems with someone else taking them just due to the shear numbers of deer we have here. I will say this though, if next year I notice a big increase in basket 8's I may just take one.

Oh and one more thing, if in a year or two when my twins start hunting I will encourage and praise them to take any buck they see. As they get a few deer under their belts I will encourage them to let the smaller ones walk, but if they decide to take a small one I will not discipline them as long as the venison is not wasted.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
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I have one for the QDM folks, you know there is a 7-8 year old monster 6 point on the property you hunt, 23-24 inches on the inside of the beam with 12-14&quot; tines, he has never had brow tines or he would be a real brute of an 8 point, you also know there is a nice 3.5 year old buck that was a nice basket 8 last season. Now you see a scrub buck that is an easy shot, do you take him to stop him from mating, knowing that the other 2 nice bucks are still on the hoof? Mind you there is a huge amount of does in your area. You are to your knowledge the only person to hunt this area and you can kill 3 bucks a year and 100 doe. Do you cull him or let him walk, knowing he will breed and may get to be a bit larger, but still be a scrub buck passing on his genes?

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If I had three buck tags? Even if I had only one, I would most definately try for the 6 pointer right off!!! That buck you describe is a true trophy due to its rarity. Kind of like the 3 anltered buck I harvested a couple of weeks ago. It is a rare find in the nature of a piebald, albino, ect.

Now, Do I shoot the scrub buck while having 3 tags? Most definately. If I have done my homework, and have seen the same buck, year after year, and no significant growth has occured, I will do my part in removing him from the herd. If I am not 100% sure of it, I let it walk and take my chances that his offspring will load up on minerals and develope their own superior gene pool year after year.
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The Tazman aka Martin Price
Founder and President of
Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club

stealthman

I truly enjoy matching wits with a mature whitetail buck..... although most times the buck wins!
I have been lucky enough to take 3 P&Y whitetails and am very thankful for them,I do try and take a doe every year and do my part for game management,I do not shoot the small bucks as they will turn into &quot;SHOOTERS&quot; if guys will just let them walk!
To each his own and we all must do what we enjoy....it does get frustrating,holding out for a mature buck!
When it all comes together and you take a truly nice buck it is all worth the wait!!!!!!
I have screwed up more times on big bucks than I like to admit....but I guess that is what makes them so special,they are smarter than the other deer and most hunters!

skeeter 7MM

quote:
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I have one for the QDM folks, you know there is a 7-8 year old monster 6 point on the property you hunt, 23-24 inches on the inside of the beam with 12-14&quot; tines, he has never had brow tines or he would be a real brute of an 8 point, you also know there is a nice 3.5 year old buck that was a nice basket 8 last season. Now you see a scrub buck that is an easy shot, do you take him to stop him from mating, knowing that the other 2 nice bucks are still on the hoof? Mind you there is a huge amount of does in your area. You are to your knowledge the only person to hunt this area and you can kill 3 bucks a year and 100 doe. Do you cull him or let him walk, knowing he will breed and may get to be a bit larger, but still be a scrub buck passing on his genes?



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In this given situation I would tag the &quot;scrub&quot;, since i have a good shot opp and 3 tags knowing the area that he really does nothing to my heard for the buck side and I don't need more does..so his worth is minimal.(better suited to my freezer)

I would hunt the 6 point and thin the does when the opportunity arises. However if the 6 point was still showing the same signs of monster qualities and the 3.5 basket rack appeared to be not going anywhere...I would opt to take out yet the another poor quality deer, the basket rack. If the roles were reversed and the basket rack was indeed showing signs of going somewhere I would pass him. If the 6 point was starting a downwind swing he'd be gone given the chance.

Now if both these deer were on the up, I would see what else remains in my area for bucks. Seeing the area was scattered with does but only these 2 larger bucks...it wouldn't be QDM to remove the 2 heavies out of the group. I would then harvest mature deer that were in the &quot;Scrub&quot; buck catagory and more does. It wouldn't make sense to get rid of your high genetics if you area was buck/doe out of whack.


If the area was buck/doe in check, I would most definetely spend the bulk of my time on the big 6 and still thinning out my does as I go along. The scrub buck mentioned would be still taken, as would another if the shot was presented (keeping my last tag for the 6).

Is this Trophy Hunting, you bet you are setting yourself up for the future. If their are no Trophies present now then you must make a plan for the future. Reduce the herd, buck/doe in check and get rid of the poor genes. What you'll be left with is year to year growth and quality on the rise. It may take 2-5 years to haul out the bad boy you dreamed of, but then it will just keep getting easier...the more you have the better the chances. (Sure the big 6 maybe considered a Trophy, but if he is the big generator of your genetics pool for quality than removing him would prove to be useless at this point)

Tazman

skeeter this 6 pointer is one sly old dog, I have hunted the you know what out of this property and only seen him once, he is huge, both in body and rack. The guy who owns the property is one heck of a hunter, he has a trophy room full of big white tails, one beautiful mulie, and one really nice Elk to boot. He has the 6 point on video tape taken during the off season, he told me he hunted him hard for three years and threw the towel in on him.

I know where he beds, it is in an overgrown field where he has every advantage in the world, the one time I saw him was at about 100 yards, jumped him out of his bed, there is only one word I can use to describe him, majestic! He enters the bedding area before sunup and leaves after sundown. One of these days, I hope before he starts going down hill he is going to slip up and I hope I am there when he does.

The basket 8 was young last year, I have a feeling he is pretty big now if the 6 point is his daddy! I just hope the 6 point is a prolific breeder!!!!

The Tazman aka Martin Price
Founder and President of
Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club

JRW

Sorry Richie, that dog won't hunt (no pun intented).

<font color=red>&quot;Is this all you have for a response for my questions?&quot;</font id=red>

It was more than sufficient. I shoot what I shoot because I choose to. Justification to you or anyone else is not even on the radar of consideration.

No offense, but who are you that I should have to explain what deer I legally take?

<font color=red>&quot;I choose to hunt because I need to hunt.&quot;</font id=red>

No, you don't need to hunt. You won't die if you don't shoot a deer.

<font color=red>&quot;I choose to hunt because I need to help feed the families on which property I hunt on.&quot;</font id=red>

For some reason, I highly doubt they'll starve to death if you don't kill a deer or two for them.

<font color=red>&quot;Comparing a misunderstanding of my grammer to gun control isn't even on the same page.&quot;</font id=red>

Not only on the same page, but the same paragraph as well. You're wanting people to justify their supposed &quot;need&quot; to kill buck that you personally feel is below your standards. Every day, sportsmen are faced with the same challenges, to show &quot;need&quot; for our gun ownership, hunting, and fishing.

The argument, or rather, demand of explanation, is absurd at best. No one owes you, or any trophy hunter, any explanation for the deer they choose to kill, or pass up. Just like no one owes PeTA or Sarah Brady an explanation for their choices concerning gun ownership or legal hunting activities.

Why do you think any fellow hunter owes you some justification for shooting any deer?


BOWFANATIC

<font color=blue>&quot;SW Iowa Hunter , good post! You hit the nail on the head!
Sorry guys (trophy hunters) , but it is indeed the trophy hunters who will ruin hunting for our future generations. I've heard wolfen68 talk about this problem himself. Whats it gonna take for our grandkids to hunt? Every time you turn around , a group of trophy hunters are leasing up every bit of available land. Whats the term wolfen used? Land mongers? Well , every area leased around here by the &quot;land mongers&quot; becomes TBM.&quot;</font id=blue>

OUTSTANDING post! As someone who lives in Illinois, I couldn't agree more.

JRW

James Vee

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>BOWFANATIC

&quot;SW Iowa Hunter , good post! You hit the nail on the head!
Sorry guys (trophy hunters) , but it is indeed the trophy hunters who will ruin hunting for our future generations. I've heard wolfen68 talk about this problem himself. Whats it gonna take for our grandkids to hunt? Every time you turn around , a group of trophy hunters are leasing up every bit of available land. Whats the term wolfen used? Land mongers? Well , every area leased around here by the &quot;land mongers&quot; becomes TBM.&quot;

OUTSTANDING post! As someone who lives in Illinois, I couldn't agree more.

JRW
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That, my friends, is why they have state land. For those who either can not afford to buy and manage their own land, and to ensure the rights of hunters and other citizens to use the land as they wish. If this means taking deer that don't meet the standards of your local TBM groups, then this is the place for you to hunt.

skeeter 7MM

Tazman, sounds great and you illistrated in your story one the reason I choose to be who I am in hunting terms!!! Completely capture the essence just by reliving his experience with one deer. You know while describing that story i could almost picture it, why cause I been their in real life and many more times in my head.

I too had a ghost, he was the largest non-typical wt I have ever seen on the hoof. I only caught a look once in the daylight as it was fading and 8 times in the headlights of the truck over a 3 year period. In fact i thought he was dream, until the 2nd last time we saw him I had 3 others that verified he was no dream. Guess what guys, I never got him and he was found dead 2 winters after the last sighting...still scored enough to easily make B&C in both typical and notypical. When I drive that trail or sit in that area I still see him standing their, at night I think of him just peering off as the light faded the first time I saw him and when I think of why I choose to be who I am...he's the first to pop in my mind...not the ones i connected on but the one the ouwit, outplayed and outsmarter me (sorry to quote that terrible reality show...but true) He one many a battle with both animal and man...Monarch is his name. Now when I do connect I think of just how rare and great accomplishment I have done. But you know what that feeling of harvesting a doe or lesser is the same...it is all that a sense of accomplishment, outwitting him/her on her field. (if you have goals that are met...if your killing just to check the box (male)or succesful in your hunter survey than that is the wrong reason...imho)

I have stated this and will again, if you hunt for meat or hunt for horn it is all the same if you are happy with what you have accomplished. I don't want us all to be the same, life isn't like that in any other ways, why should it be in hunting. If you want a view point or back up on why a person does what they do, then be prepared for answers you may not want to hear or agree with. Trying to convince each other our way is the best is stupid and immpossible. Nor is it required to prove why you choose to do what you do...it is personal choice. If your proof or reasoning equals satisfaction then by all means do what you will. The last thing I (or you)want or need is to be told...no that is all wrong.

I can't comment on the trophy and lease thing since that is not the case here. But if the herd quality went up across the board then would it not be fair to say their would be less need to &quot;Monger Land&quot; and create your own TBM? Here it was largely thought the true trophies were only located in the central/south part of the province, largely in agriculture land. this was true to some extend b/c they for years offered a 2 Buck limit in the northern regions and forest to help in promoting hunters to hunt these areas and help keep the pop. in check. Well that proved to be a incorrect Management desicion, the limit was reduced to 1 deer all over the province and an added doe tag was put in place for those areas. If you polled the hunters of this province to get results on deer and mature whitetails you'd get the same answer...they are everywhere and your chances of bagging deer and good bucks are as good in the south to the north. Most people hunt here for convience (near home) most wouldn't travel to the bush to kill only 1 Buck and a doe. Results are a balanced herd & excellent opportunities throughout. (we don't have the numbers some of you have in deer or hunters, are deer herd (Whitetail/Mules) is pegged at million, about 55,000 tags are sold a year which includes mule, wt-either and doe and about 30,000 are harvested..of about 75% are indeed bucks..success rates for a deer are in that 60% range for deer in total)(but if you run the numbers for whitetail deer alone you'll end up in the 78% and mules about the same...the archery only mule deer tag drags down the harvest success rate due to about only 30% succes rate is accomplished) The 75% male rate is still the same with each catagory.

Why did i give you all this data, cause it shows that management of a herd shouldn't be based on numbers alone but the area and the herd as whole. Many think our DNR are way to strict on the management side and should allow for more does than they do, but they also know either sex tags are primarily used for bucks and that by introducing more doe permits puts more pressure on the buck population. Areas that receive less preesure or hunting activity need the available doe tag to encourage doe harvest. It all boils down to a great place to hunt, so good I am thankful indeed! But it should also help explain one reason why I choose to hold my tag, instead of use it on the first legal animal.



Edited by - skeeter 7mm on 11/29/2002 15:04:28

Big Country

I`ll let you guys fight away about shooting young deer or not. One thing that Bowfanatic pointed out about the &quot;land mongers&quot; though, I will address. I guess I am a land monger according to this new definition, anyway, a substantial sized farm next to my lease in Illinois leased out this year to a group from South Carolina. Now these are only the bucks that came onto my lease, who knows what went the other way? Five, count them, five gutshot bucks came across onto us(we watched 3 of them come over)they are all lying dead on my lease. The biggest buck was maybe 110&quot;. Lousy, unethical hunters to say the least, but obviously NOT trophy hunters.
So I guess ALL land mongers are not like me, they don`t all feel the need to let small bucks walk.
Last year I got involved in the never ending debate concerning letting young bucks walk, and soon realized it was like beating your thumb with a hammer! It feels better when you stop.
Last year I did ask one question, that I have yet to see a legitimate answer to.
If you are a full grown man, with several smaller bucks under your belt, why would you possibly WANT to shoot smaller bucks?

I will add something that wolfen said, it went something along the lines of young bucks are so dumb, its like throwing them a stick and telling them to fetch it.
He is not that far off.
Young bucks are that dumb, at least in the dozen or so states that I have hunted whitetails in. It is no big feat to shoot one. If that is want someone wants to do, you won`t get any slack from me. Unless you want to hunt on one of my leases!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
I forgot to add this....BOWDACIOUS, you did the right thing bud. If, and when hunting for only big bucks turns into no fun for me, I will do whatever it takes(within the law) to bring the fun back into it!

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

Edited by - Big Country on 11/29/2002 20:56:46

kgkoon

Why do I kill small bucks? Because I enjoy deer hunting; I enjoy sitting in the woods all day, watching squirrels and other animals play; I enjoy the camradarie of deer camp; I enjoy helping a long time friend drag his small buck out of the woods; I enjoy helping that same friend skin his little buck, knowing he will help me; I enjoy sharing stories at deer camp of past kills, and the ones that got away; I enjoy listening to a youngster tell of his sighting a 4 point; and I enjoy killing deer, plain and simple.
None of us &quot;need&quot; to hunt!! It is a tradition, passed down from times when maybe it was needed. To me, antler restrictions and trophy management are geared toward the &quot;competitive hunter&quot;. Hunting to me is not about antler size!! So why do I take little bucks? Because they are a deer, and I am a deer hunter. Its pretty simple when you think about it.