RICHIE3

Final word??

I don't think so.

Remember, we are all part time hunters at best, no matter how much time we spend in the woods.

I am still looking for good reasons why experienced hunters need to take small, inferior bucks. Several questions that I have posed in response, have yet to be answered by anyone in favor of taking small bucks.

Just trying to defend my view of this friendly debate.......

Anyone??

skeeter 7MM

Richie I was referring to Hunters as the final word...not this debate!

Meat HUNTER or Trophy HUNTER....sorry.

SW Iowa Hunter

Answer this question for me; Do you all keep small 1/2 lb. bass?
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I would not keep a 1/2 pound bass mainly because I don't fish much and don't care to clean them!!!



quote:
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Those that say that they just want meat, go ahead and shoot the does.

It seems to be the only excuse that small buck hunters use when they shoot a small buck. But they have no answers when you suggest that they should only take does.


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Personally I don't think you need an excuse to shoot anything
(legally).

I will try to give you a couple of reasons why experienced hunters may choose to shoot a small buck.

1. In some areas they may not have alot of opportunity to shoot a deer.
2. Some people get more of a thrill out of shooting a buck than a doe no matter what the size.
3. Some people just choose too.

I don't fall into the first two catagories because we have a large amount of deer and I like hunting deer so the small bucks make no difference to me verses does.

You may even say I am trophy hunting since this looks to be the first time in a long time that I may have an unused tag after season ends. I have a deer running around that will go in the 190+ range that I have been hunting. I have shot some big deer,maybe not as many as some,but nice deer anyway. They are not in the book,although some could be if I choose to enter them. some of them are actually hanging outside with the skull left on. One is on a plaque, one in the shed I think, couple on the cave at my parents, I don't even cut the horns off the little ones anymore just use the hide and ribe cage for coyote bait!!!

One thing I am proud of is that I don't let anything but my own choice determine what I will hunt and when. I agreee with Wolfen and Richie3 on letting the little walk makes for bigger deer. Does that truely make you happier?If it does then great, go for it.

If you like to just hunt,then hunt. Shoot whatever you want and if you are proud of it then who am I to do anything but slap you on the back and help drag it out!!!

Quote "I read a really good article several years ago about the stages we go through as hunters.In the begining we just want to kill a deer period.Any deer.Then as we become proficient at killing deer we want to fill all our tags or kill our limit as we would say down south.Then we want to kill nice bucks or trophys.After you kill a few nice deer then how you kill them becomes the challnge.Bowhunting or muzzle loading etc."

You can add one catagory to this list and that is when you no longer need a catagory to enjoy hunting. One day or one year I may trophy hunt the next day or year I may shoot everything by. The good thing about it is I enjoy myself no matter what.

Horn size really don't matter if you don't enjoy yourself while doing it. Sounded to me like Bowdacious had reached a new level with his hunting. Maybe he will go back to trophy hunting next year, maybe not.

You can agrue all you want and post all the questions you want about why would experienced hunters shoot this or that but it comes right down to,they want to and prob. have better reasons for doing it than most inexperienced hunters.

Personally I am more into watching our next generation get started into hunting than what I shoot anymore. Anyone who is a father knows what I mean.


Quote"SW Iowa...my mission in life is to get as many hunters as possible to understand the importance of letting immature bucks live and rarely will I pass up a chance to attempt to educate others on the topic. You see pics of monster bucks posted on this message board followed by dozens of hunters ooohing and aaaahhhing over it and talking about falling out of their stands if they ever say anything that big and a lot of these guys are the same hunters that shoot small, immature bucks. Enough said. This "debate" will continue no more on this post provided that no further posts require my response. Now let's see how emotional an issue this is for folks. Congratulations on your season Bowdacious."

Wolfen I don't disagree with you philosophy just don't like to see someone pushing thier beliefs on someone else. The above post was a very good response to my previous post and I want to thank you for the way it was posted, your point was very well taken and made with no offense intended or recieved.

I have thought about it and I would keep that 1/2 pound bass.

I changed my mind and made a different choice. That is the good thing about hunting in america, as long as you are not breaking the law or hurting someone else you can change your mind and choose something different from what you did yesterday.

By the way this is a great debate and staying very friendly and you are right Richie3 I am sure bowdacious knew what would happen with this post.





<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

&quot; Anyone can be a father, but it takes a real man to be a Dad&quot;

davidmil

Whack'em and stack'em. It's all about enjoying the game. I've been saying forever that some of you folks just don't know how lucky you are to have MONSTER bucks wandering all over. If I killed the biggest deer in the county he'd probably be a scrub in Iowa or Kansas. You try and do your rattling and calling here and you'll only call the neighbors. I just love all these guys that preach shoot the BIG ones only and let the small ones go. Most of them haven't shot more than 5 or 6 deer with a bow ever.... some of them NONE. Yet they profess to be something better than the guy who enjoys whacking his 6 pointer. I'm going to start a nationwide campaign urging ALL bowhunter to shoot the next Scrub they see. Put some blood on the ground. Spoil a trophy hunters dream.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Nothing but 6 points and less.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Have fun... to heck with the trophy hunter. I herein pledge to whack the next little spike or 4 point or 6 point that presents himself. I need the meat. I've only shot 6 this year and have given 5 away. Whack 'em and Stack 'em. AND yes, I go fishing about once or twice every 2 or 3 years. If it bites and is edible.... it gets fried.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>


Edited by - davidmil on 11/28/2002 22:49:39

RICHIE3

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
1. In some areas they may not have alot of opportunity to shoot a deer.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Can you answer me why that is??? What areas are you talking about??
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>2. Some people get more of a thrill out of shooting a buck than a doe no matter what the size.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I am sure. I just know, that when an experienced hunter harvests a small basket rack 6 pointer, the following year he will say &quot;I hope I shoot a smaller one this year!&quot;
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>3. Some people just choose too.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Yes, you are right. And they will be the first one complaining about antler restrictions. Good answer.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I don't even cut the horns off the little ones anymore just use the hide and ribe cage for coyote bait!!!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Wow. I can't believe what I just read. You just got to take a small buck, can't take a doe for the same purpose?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Shoot whatever you want and if you are proud of it then who am I to do anything but slap you on the back and help drag it out!!!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Same here, if it is a large enough deer to justify two people dragging the animal out. But, unless there is some other unforeseen circumstances, you should have no trouble at all dragging out that spike buck.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Horn size really don't matter if you don't enjoy yourself while doing it. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
You are missing the point, badly. I would be glad to harvest any animal that comes in front of me and know that it doesn't effect the state of hunting for tomorrow. But, we do not live in a perfect world, now do we? I know and have seen the effects of this type of thinking, and the outlook is not good.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>You can agrue all you want and post all the questions you want about why would experienced hunters shoot this or that but it comes right down to,they want to and prob. have better reasons for doing it than most inexperienced hunters.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
That is all I am asking for. I would like to know the &quot;better reasons for doing it&quot;, because I haven't seen any yet.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Personally I am more into watching our next generation get started into hunting than what I shoot anymore. Anyone who is a father knows what I mean.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Ahhhhhhhh..... There it is. If you are that interested for the future of younger generations, why not help presereve it? If people keep going on the path of &quot;shoot everything that moves&quot;, there will be no future for the younger generations. Because, that is the way it is going. Just talk to the states with antler restrictions. How hard is it to understand? By the way, you don't have to be a father to understand what you said above. I don't have children, but take every opportunity to take any and all of my nieces and nephews out into the timber or onto the lake when ever they desire.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Wolfen I don't disagree with you philosophy just don't like to see someone pushing thier beliefs on someone else.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Once again, this is not about pushing beliefs of one onto another. It is a friendly debate, and that's what debates are, organized arguments.

RICHIE3

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I've been saying forever that some of you folks just don't know how lucky you are to have MONSTER bucks wandering all over.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Are you sure that it is just luck?? Have you ever gave it any thought that someone might be doing all they can to help out the trophy bucks?? How did someone get trophy bucks in their area?? Is it because everyone and their brother shot every buck no matter what the size? I don't think so.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> If I killed the biggest deer in the county he'd probably be a scrub in Iowa or Kansas.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Why is that I wonder?? Yes, it is true, some areas have better genetics than others, and you need genetics to help in the process of big deer. This will help speed up the process. But don't think for a minute that just because the genetics aren't there now, that there is no way they cannot be put into place for the future herd. Adding food plots, supplying natural mineral suppliments, ect. can help out future generations of bucks and does, even those that come from inferior genetic animals. Here is an example. You can take the child of the largest, strongest man in the world, but if he doesn't get nutrition properly and allowed to grow, he will look nothing like the father. This also works in reverse, but to a lesser degree. Only does that gap narrow from generation to generation with proper nutrition and growth.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I just love all these guys that preach shoot the BIG ones only and let the small ones go. Most of them haven't shot more than 5 or 6 deer with a bow ever.... some of them NONE. Yet they profess to be something better than the guy who enjoys whacking his 6 pointer. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I am not professing to be anything you decribed. I just realize now the importance of my stance, instead dreading it later.<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I'm going to start a nationwide campaign urging ALL bowhunter to shoot the next Scrub they see. Put some blood on the ground. Spoil a trophy hunters dream.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Nothing but 6 points and less.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
This is a good one. You will not be spoiling my dream so much. But this type of thinking will spoil the dreams of many future hunters to come. Do you ever wonder why they call it &quot;the good ol' days&quot;? Probably not, but ask your grandchildren and great grandchildren, or anybodies future hunting generations this. Because by then, they will be calling today, the good ol' days, if we do not change our ways now.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I herein pledge to whack the next little spike or 4 point or 6 point that presents himself. I need the meat. I've only shot 6 this year and have given 5 away. Whack 'em and Stack 'em. AND yes, I go fishing about once or twice every 2 or 3 years. If it bites and is edible.... it gets fried.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Do you know what the equivalent to antler restrictions are in the fishing world??

They are called &quot;length limits&quot; or &quot;slot limits&quot;. And they are already in place nation wide on public waters. There is a reason for this, the same reason for antler restrictions. Keep it up, it is coming soon near you.

JRW

<font color=red>&quot;I am still looking for good reasons why experienced hunters need to take small, inferior bucks. Several questions that I have posed in response, have yet to be answered by anyone in favor of taking small bucks.&quot;</font id=red>

How about the best reason of all...choice? It's one of the same reasons that we use to fight anti-hunters when they ask us all why we need to shoot any animal.

All sportsmen, be they hunters, fishermen, or gun owners in general, should be very careful about introducing need as a justification for doing anything. After all...who needs that semi-auto rifle or handgun?

Substituting choice for need is one of the animal rights and gun control lobby's favorite cards to play. As sportsmen, we should be more cautious when we start sliding down their slippery slope.

<font color=red>&quot;I am sure. I just know, that when an experienced hunter harvests a small basket rack 6 pointer, the following year he will say &quot;I hope I shoot a smaller one this year!&quot;</font id=red>

Maybe he says, &quot;I hope I shoot another one this year, and I don't much care if it's bigger or smaller&quot;. Have you never shot a buck that was smaller than &quot;last year's trophy&quot;? If so, did you set out to shoot a &quot;smaller one&quot;, or did you just excercise your personal choice to do so?

JRW

RICHIE3

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

How about the best reason of all...choice? It's one of the same reasons that we use to fight anti-hunters when they ask us all why we need to shoot any animal.

All sportsmen, be they hunters, fishermen, or gun owners in general, should be very careful about introducing need as a justification for doing anything. After all...who needs that semi-auto rifle or handgun?

Substituting choice for need is one of the animal rights and gun control lobby's favorite cards to play. As sportsmen, we should be more cautious when we start sliding down their slippery slope.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Is this all you have for a response for my questions? I do not agree with what was just said. Comparing a misunderstanding of my grammer to gun control isn't even on the same page.
I choose to hunt because I need to hunt. I choose to hunt because I need to help feed the families on which property I hunt on. Now, all that can be reversed and mean exactly the same thing. Why would I choose anything I do not need?? Everything that I have or own comes from a need for it. It is someone elses opinion that brings into play the difference between a &quot;luxury&quot; and &quot;necessity&quot;.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Maybe he says, &quot;I hope I shoot another one this year, and I don't much care if it's bigger or smaller&quot;.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
This is my point. It is my argument that he should care. If not for himself, than for future generations to come.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Have you never shot a buck that was smaller than &quot;last year's trophy&quot;? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Yes, of course I have. Now ask me the question if it was a basket rack, button buck, spike, forkhorn, ect., or a good quality animal.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If so, did you set out to shoot a &quot;smaller one&quot;, or did you just excercise your personal choice to do so?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I chose to harvest the animal, because I realize the need for a quality herd for future generations.

Wow! 400 posts agian for the 3rd time!! I am glad it happened during a good spirited debate!! Thanks!!

Edited by - richie3 on 11/29/2002 08:23:22

Tazman

I have one for the QDM folks, you know there is a 7-8 year old monster 6 point on the property you hunt, 23-24 inches on the inside of the beam with 12-14&quot; tines, he has never had brow tines or he would be a real brute of an 8 point, you also know there is a nice 3.5 year old buck that was a nice basket 8 last season. Now you see a scrub buck that is an easy shot, do you take him to stop him from mating, knowing that the other 2 nice bucks are still on the hoof? Mind you there is a huge amount of does in your area. You are to your knowledge the only person to hunt this area and you can kill 3 bucks a year and 100 doe. Do you cull him or let him walk, knowing he will breed and may get to be a bit larger, but still be a scrub buck passing on his genes?

The Tazman aka Martin Price
Founder and President of
Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club

davidmil

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