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12-01-2002, 07:32 AM
#101
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Walker LA USA
Posts: 443
RE: Trophy Hunting?
The truth is what game managers and biologists view as a balanced and healthy deer herd and what hunters see as an ideal number of deer are different.Ten years ago we had way to many deer an a buck doe ratio of 10,15 to 1 in many areas.Our 1/1/2 old deer averaged 90-100 #'s.We rarely killed any mature bucks.2/3's of them were killed as spikes or forkhorns.This out of balance situation came from shooting too few does and too many juvenile bucks.Alot of guys got used to seeing 6-8 deer every hunt.What hunter does'nt like to see deer every hunt?But the truth is our herd was in bad shape.First they increased the doe harvest but even though numbers came down some the ratio was still out of whack.MS then introduced a 4 point rule.Now 2/3's of the mature bucks live past their first year.The ratio has come down.while it is near impossible to get a 1 to 1 ratio in the wild we probably are closer to 3 to 4 to 1.Our herd is healthy and more balanced in age structure.We no longer see late born fawns,our 1/1/2 old deer weights have increased to about 125#.In MS the ENTIRE season is either sex on private property.Many predicted it would ruin our herd,wipe out the population.It has'nt happened.We work closely with state bioligists in a DMAP program.They survey our habitat and make recomendations on antlerless harvest.More states are going this route.LA is experimenting with a 6 point rule,PA is making changes.GA has counties with antler restrictions.Now up north were winter mortality is higher and firearms seasons are short,more deer die of natural causes and the short firearms seasons ensure more bucks live longer.The approach used by MS and other states is not necessary.I think RICHIE3 is right in saying that many states will regulate buck harvest to try and achieve some balance in the deer population.QDM is about producing a balanced healthy deer herd.The benefits are obvious.I for one have enjoyed the change.One of the reasons I enjoy bowhunting is that you can't shoot every deer you see.When a rifle hunter sees a deer at 75 yards the game is over.Bowhunting has enabled me to watch deer more before I shoot.I have learned more about deer behaviour and had some great experiences just watching deer in their enviroment.It has made me a better hunter.Passing on young deer has done the same.I don't automaticaly shoot every deer I see.Several times I have been rewarded with nice bucks by not pulling the trigger so soon.I kill just as many deer as did in the past,mostly does.But in the last few years my sons and I have killed some nice mature bucks,some "TROPHYS",some just nice mature deer.I think having a freezer full of deer meat and the chance to shoot a mature buck is having your cake and eating it too.
Billy
WHACKEM N STACKEM
Billy
WHACKEM N STACKEM
12-01-2002, 08:54 AM
#102
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: patten.maine usa
Posts: 147
RE: Trophy Hunting?
Cajun,you make some good points.Maine is trying to get its herd to a more marketable level.Our winters and forest management along with predation are our largest hurdles.Adult, mature all rutted out bucks, are the ones who die in a severe winter.They need more nourishment to keep warm not to mention the need to replenish their bodies after rutting.They are most vunerable to coyotes.
The management issue Maine faces now is the overabundance of deer in the urban areas.Next year we are going to have an unlimited amount of doe tags in certain areas,bow only.Towns are coming forward applying for permission to enter the program.
Northern Maine is a totally different story.It is basically a working forest with very little population.Very remote and very rugged country.Saving the wintering areas is a must for the herd to survive.Estimates are a couple of deer per square mile,which is misleading because you can get into areas that hold a few times that many.A buck can meander 10-20 miles in the rut.I don't think it is the norm,however 5 miles can be.
At this point QDM is far from the minds of the people who own and manage the land.Hunters are more of a nuisance with their demands for forest management and land access.To make matters worse a Canadian Company is buying Maine land up for the sole purpose of harvesting the forest,they have no gains from QDM.
Keeping our heritage is important here in Maine.Trophy hunting is a bad word.You don't hunt to hang antlers on the wall,you hunt to feed the family,ease the bills.Personally I think it is total disrespect of the animal to simply harvest him for the size of his rack and not put him on the dinner table.Talk to most of the old timers around and they would take a doe or a spike over a tough ole swamp buck every time.
I love taking big deer and like most would love to have the big guy walk by.I no guys who have hunted their whole lives and have never had the chance to kill a trophy.Waiting years for it to happen just ain't worth it for braggin rights.
The management issue Maine faces now is the overabundance of deer in the urban areas.Next year we are going to have an unlimited amount of doe tags in certain areas,bow only.Towns are coming forward applying for permission to enter the program.
Northern Maine is a totally different story.It is basically a working forest with very little population.Very remote and very rugged country.Saving the wintering areas is a must for the herd to survive.Estimates are a couple of deer per square mile,which is misleading because you can get into areas that hold a few times that many.A buck can meander 10-20 miles in the rut.I don't think it is the norm,however 5 miles can be.
At this point QDM is far from the minds of the people who own and manage the land.Hunters are more of a nuisance with their demands for forest management and land access.To make matters worse a Canadian Company is buying Maine land up for the sole purpose of harvesting the forest,they have no gains from QDM.
Keeping our heritage is important here in Maine.Trophy hunting is a bad word.You don't hunt to hang antlers on the wall,you hunt to feed the family,ease the bills.Personally I think it is total disrespect of the animal to simply harvest him for the size of his rack and not put him on the dinner table.Talk to most of the old timers around and they would take a doe or a spike over a tough ole swamp buck every time.
I love taking big deer and like most would love to have the big guy walk by.I no guys who have hunted their whole lives and have never had the chance to kill a trophy.Waiting years for it to happen just ain't worth it for braggin rights.
12-01-2002, 09:14 AM
#103
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903
RE: Trophy Hunting?
<font color=red>
Sure seems like you were talking to me? And, FWIW, I may not retain 100% of every post, but I have read them all.</font id=red>
I apoligize. Yes I was talking to you. I was confused as to which comment you were refering to.
<font color=red>By the way....still no answer to #3!</font id=red>
Come again?? What was it you asked that wasn't already asked by Richie?
<font color=red>
Yes, but you think it is for a different reason. Having more does taken in the name of "herd reduction" doesn't make sense. The next answer will explain why.</font id=red>
Doesn't make sense?? Your losing me here! If you want to drastically reduce the herd you target the female species. You know , the ones that give birth to one , two , sometimes three fawns each year. Much like when I was younger the does were protected (lottery tag) to increase the herd size.
<font color=red>
Yes, according to you. You must believe that their are not too many small bucks being taken. Here are some of your exact quotes.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Do you think their wrong for shooting the first legal buck that comes by"
"There are alot of us "regular ole plain vanilla brown it's down kinda guys."
"Some hunters are perfectly happy harvesting mediocre bucks while hoping someday, that huge trophy buck (you know, that rare mystical creature, the one you can't see every time you go out, due to TBM) will come by."
"If your into small racks, good for you."</font id=red>
Here you go again! Taking comments I made and twisting them around to look like the comment was meant towards everyone everywhere.
As for the hunter who shot the first legal buck?? I was refering to northern Wi (btw , you didn't answer that question) or places like northern Maine.
Plain ole vanilla brown it's down kinda guys? That was sarcasm aimed at wolfen68. But yes! There are alot of true hunters who understand the big picture.
The last two quotes! Heck ya! I stand by it! Now where was it I said that there weren't too many young bucks being shot in particular?
I am not argueing at all that there are places that need drastic measures to decrease the herd or balance the herd.
<font color=red> Well... That is a good step in the right direction, but still not the desired results. The key in this is to let small, immature bucks pass, culling out the old bucks who haven't generated any quality traits, and maintaining an equal balance of the buck to doe ratio by harvesting a sizable amount of does until the ratio is balanced and kept in check.</font id=red>
Ahhh , it's only a step in the right direction? So , if it's all about QDM and the health of the herd , what would hurt the health of the herd by shooting two or three does and then shooting a young buck? If the herd is out of wack then surly it doesn't matter how old of a buck you remove? Which is exactly what Bowdacious did! He shot three does and then a young buck. Whats your squabble? Is it QDM? The health of the herd? Or bigger antlers?
<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Sure seems like you were talking to me? And, FWIW, I may not retain 100% of every post, but I have read them all.</font id=red>
I apoligize. Yes I was talking to you. I was confused as to which comment you were refering to.
<font color=red>By the way....still no answer to #3!</font id=red>
Come again?? What was it you asked that wasn't already asked by Richie?
<font color=red>
Yes, but you think it is for a different reason. Having more does taken in the name of "herd reduction" doesn't make sense. The next answer will explain why.</font id=red>
Doesn't make sense?? Your losing me here! If you want to drastically reduce the herd you target the female species. You know , the ones that give birth to one , two , sometimes three fawns each year. Much like when I was younger the does were protected (lottery tag) to increase the herd size.
<font color=red>
Yes, according to you. You must believe that their are not too many small bucks being taken. Here are some of your exact quotes.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Do you think their wrong for shooting the first legal buck that comes by"
"There are alot of us "regular ole plain vanilla brown it's down kinda guys."
"Some hunters are perfectly happy harvesting mediocre bucks while hoping someday, that huge trophy buck (you know, that rare mystical creature, the one you can't see every time you go out, due to TBM) will come by."
"If your into small racks, good for you."</font id=red>
Here you go again! Taking comments I made and twisting them around to look like the comment was meant towards everyone everywhere.
As for the hunter who shot the first legal buck?? I was refering to northern Wi (btw , you didn't answer that question) or places like northern Maine.
Plain ole vanilla brown it's down kinda guys? That was sarcasm aimed at wolfen68. But yes! There are alot of true hunters who understand the big picture.
The last two quotes! Heck ya! I stand by it! Now where was it I said that there weren't too many young bucks being shot in particular?
I am not argueing at all that there are places that need drastic measures to decrease the herd or balance the herd.
<font color=red> Well... That is a good step in the right direction, but still not the desired results. The key in this is to let small, immature bucks pass, culling out the old bucks who haven't generated any quality traits, and maintaining an equal balance of the buck to doe ratio by harvesting a sizable amount of does until the ratio is balanced and kept in check.</font id=red>
Ahhh , it's only a step in the right direction? So , if it's all about QDM and the health of the herd , what would hurt the health of the herd by shooting two or three does and then shooting a young buck? If the herd is out of wack then surly it doesn't matter how old of a buck you remove? Which is exactly what Bowdacious did! He shot three does and then a young buck. Whats your squabble? Is it QDM? The health of the herd? Or bigger antlers?
<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
12-01-2002, 09:57 AM
#104
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Walker LA USA
Posts: 443
RE: Trophy Hunting?
True,different habitats and deer herds require different management methods.I find it interesting that the timberland in maine holds few deer.Must be old growth forrest.We hunt timber company land too.20 years ago when we first started hunting where our camp is it was open land(not leased).Deer numbers were extrememly low.Year round poaching kept deer densities low.Then the companys began leasing land to control who had acess to the property.That along with timber management practices(clearcutting) caused an explosion in our population.State game bioligists at that time wanted to increase the herd size so doe harvest was restricted.We have few natural predators and no winter kill to speak of.Our timber company(georgia pacific) has always been hunter friendly.They lease the property cheap as not to price locals and common folk out of the market.They maintain the roads after timber harvest for acess.The hunting cycles with the age of the timber.I would never advocate taking a deer soley for it's rack.Deer is our main staple of meat in my house.What we do down here obviously would'nt work in your situation.I have seen both ends of the spectrum.Very low deer density were you hunted for days just to see a deer.To a overpopulated herd with too many does and too few mature bucks.Now we still have good numbers but we also have some mature bucks running around.By shooting does and letting 1 1/2 bucks walk we have achieved a good balance between numbers and age classes.I dont consider myself a trophy hunter.We just choose to shoot mature 3 1/2 year old bucks.(and alot of does for meat)We do allow our kids to shoot any buck for their first deer.My oldest sons first deer was a button buck.(shot for a doe)In the last five years he has killed a 8pt(14 inch spread),7pt(18 3/4 inch),10 pt(16 inch),8pt (15 inch) and a bunch of does.Needless to say he is sold on QDM.
Billy
WHACKEM N STACKEM
Billy
WHACKEM N STACKEM
12-01-2002, 12:48 PM
#105
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: patten.maine usa
Posts: 147
RE: Trophy Hunting?
Cajun ,thanks for a sensible response.Yea, we say the same thing.How can you have this much woods and no deer?I think there are plenty of reasons and I also think that the size of the tract of land we are talking and its ruggedness and remote locations lead to misleading numbers.I feel that there are deer to be had back in them bushes but maybe 1% is willing to get back there.We have these places like the 1000 acre bogs which are loaded with deer but to get to them would take a parachute jump.Last week I got stir crazy from sitting and seeing nothing so I decided to find where they were.I found the kings bed room after wading through the brook and crawling through the blow downs and thickets which would be impossible to do and be quiet.If he stays in there he will grow old with no problem.
Back to QDM.Living here in Maine is making a believer out of me that the deer is basically a fringe animal.Southern Maine has proven it to me.There are very few large tracts of land without some kind of agriculture being close by.The deer population down there is exploding,maybe our northern deer have seen the light and are migrating south.You also have to know that our moose population is very healthy and generally take the same browse that the deer do making winters just that much harder for the deer.
Yarding is something that doesn't get much print but it puts the deer at a terrible disadvantage when the snow is too deep for them to travel.They are basically in the hen house with the door unlocked for the coyotes to do what they please.They do an awful number on the deer.We are going through a big todo as we write about snaring the coyotes to protect the deer.You wouldn't believe the opposition and they speak with a real loud voice.
Even when predation is down, a heavy snow winter raises havoc.Like a couple of years ago we had heavy late snows that kept them in yard longer than the food supply lasted and they simply starved to death.There are many reasons for our low herd numbers and I think it is a very tough job for our wildlife people to make good sound decisions when you have so many unpredictable factors that can make or break your final outcome.
These are just my thoughts from things I read and experience.I am no expert but I truely love to hunt for deer.Someday I will buy me a pass to go hunt someplace where I can say that I can pass on an eight pointer and be quite certain that I will see another.Ron
Back to QDM.Living here in Maine is making a believer out of me that the deer is basically a fringe animal.Southern Maine has proven it to me.There are very few large tracts of land without some kind of agriculture being close by.The deer population down there is exploding,maybe our northern deer have seen the light and are migrating south.You also have to know that our moose population is very healthy and generally take the same browse that the deer do making winters just that much harder for the deer.
Yarding is something that doesn't get much print but it puts the deer at a terrible disadvantage when the snow is too deep for them to travel.They are basically in the hen house with the door unlocked for the coyotes to do what they please.They do an awful number on the deer.We are going through a big todo as we write about snaring the coyotes to protect the deer.You wouldn't believe the opposition and they speak with a real loud voice.
Even when predation is down, a heavy snow winter raises havoc.Like a couple of years ago we had heavy late snows that kept them in yard longer than the food supply lasted and they simply starved to death.There are many reasons for our low herd numbers and I think it is a very tough job for our wildlife people to make good sound decisions when you have so many unpredictable factors that can make or break your final outcome.
These are just my thoughts from things I read and experience.I am no expert but I truely love to hunt for deer.Someday I will buy me a pass to go hunt someplace where I can say that I can pass on an eight pointer and be quite certain that I will see another.Ron
12-01-2002, 12:56 PM
#106
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: saint joseph missouri USA
Posts: 548
RE: Trophy Hunting?
NMAINERON,
Please keep in mind that the original arguement or debate is about experienced hunters taking small, young buucks or not.(refering to your now 3rd to last post)
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<font color=red>By the way....still no answer to #3!</font id=red>
Come again?? What was it you asked that wasn't already asked by Richie?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> I think he is waiting for you to answer the question both of us asked, but was never answered.
Oh, I forgot. You harvest small bucks because you choose to. I think I am getting it now. You are going to take care of you and yours first, right? Who cares what the consequenses are for future generations. I get your way of thinking now, so I will stop asking that question........good answer.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote><font color=red>
Yes, but you think it is for a different reason. Having more does taken in the name of "herd reduction" doesn't make sense. The next answer will explain why.</font id=red>
Doesn't make sense?? Your losing me here! If you want to drastically reduce the herd you target the female species. You know , the ones that give birth to one , two , sometimes three fawns each year. Much like when I was younger the does were protected (lottery tag) to increase the herd size.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I see now. The does in your herd must be some sort of "Virgin Mary" does. Wow!! That is a miracle in itself!! I didn't know that a female deer could reproduce with out the male of the species being around??
I am truly sorry for bringing in the Blessed Mother into this debate, but this goes to show how obsurd your statement is. If there is a herd explosion that needs to be eradicated or reduced, ALL sexes of said herd would be targeted.
Take for example the the CWD outbreak in Wisconsin I think it was. They were targeting getting rid of the disease and trying to stop the spread of it. Now, how did they try to do it?? Did they try to do it by killing off the does so they could not have babies with CWD???? Absolutely not!!! They targeted all deer in sight to try to reduce the spread and possible reprodcution of infected animals. This is the same reason your "doe harvest for herd reduction" theory does not make sense.
If I send you my address, will you mail me the regualtions book or guide that states these facts of herd reduction?? Missouri has one that I mentioned earlier, that comes right out and says the reasons why we have and need a significant doe harvest program, and in not one paragraph does it state in the name of "herd reduction" or anything close to that. QDM can be put into place in areas with a lcak of herd numbers, and still work.
Remember, QDM is not just about big rack bucks. It is about achieving and maintaining a healthy herd. In cases of small herd numbers, QDM may very well mean the complete elimination of hunting all together for a few years, so that the numbers build and can be more easily managed for a healthy herd. This is something I hope will never happen, and I am doing my part in preventing it from happening.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote><font color=red>
Yes, according to you. You must believe that their are not too many small bucks being taken. Here are some of your exact quotes.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Do you think their wrong for shooting the first legal buck that comes by"
"There are alot of us "regular ole plain vanilla brown it's down kinda guys."
"Some hunters are perfectly happy harvesting mediocre bucks while hoping someday, that huge trophy buck (you know, that rare mystical creature, the one you can't see every time you go out, due to TBM) will come by."
"If your into small racks, good for you."</font id=red>
Here you go again! Taking comments I made and twisting them around to look like the comment was meant towards everyone everywhere.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I don't see how I can be "twisting words around" when they are the every words YOU stated in earlier posts!! Did you state these facts about yourself just to deny that you don't believe what you yourself have said??? Like I said earlier, it is painfully obvious that you belive differently than I do, otherwise we would not still be debating about this subject. You believe it is o.k. for anyone, no matter what the level of experience, to harvest small, young bucks. I believe that the harvest of these young bucks should be left to only inexperienced and younger hunters.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>As for the hunter who shot the first legal buck?? I was refering to northern Wi (btw , you didn't answer that question) or places like northern Maine.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>I think you made a mistake, or it is possible you did not read my entire post. I did answer this question already. And I will pinpoint it for you.
Go back to to my post where I numbered questions #1 thru #8. It is the first response in black text after those questions. I would definately question it if it were an experienced hunter taking the small, young buck. The only possible exceptions now that I think about it, would be if an experienced hunter is in dire need to feed his/her family, like the one I need to hunt for, putting a young animal out of its misery due to sickness, unrecoverable injury, or immediate danger to his/her life or family members life, ect. Other than that, there is no reason what so ever, for an experienced hunter to tag a young buck.
If this is not the question you wanted answered, please number and post it again byitself, and i would be happy to give an answer.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Plain ole vanilla brown it's down kinda guys? That was sarcasm aimed at wolfen68. But yes! There are alot of true hunters who understand the big picture.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>Well...If this is your idea of a "true hunter", than I guess I am not a true hunter at all. I am sorry for not being a true hunter due to the fact that I am looking out for future generations of hunters everywhere, by doing my part in any way I can, to help insure a quality herd for them to persue. I guess I am missing the "big picture" all together.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The last two quotes! Heck ya! I stand by it! Now where was it I said that there weren't too many young bucks being shot in particular?
I am not argueing at all that there are places that need drastic measures to decrease the herd or balance the herd.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>I am sure you do. Now, did you say exactly "I said that there weren't too many young bucks being shot"??? No, you did not.....But you made it quite clear to everyone, that it is O.K. for all experienced hunters to harvest small, young bucks. This is what you are implying in one way or another. You know it and I know it, so don't try to back up the truck now.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote><font color=red> Well... That is a good step in the right direction, but still not the desired results. The key in this is to let small, immature bucks pass, culling out the old bucks who haven't generated any quality traits, and maintaining an equal balance of the buck to doe ratio by harvesting a sizable amount of does until the ratio is balanced and kept in check.</font id=red>
Ahhh , it's only a step in the right direction? So , if it's all about QDM and the health of the herd , what would hurt the health of the herd by shooting two or three does and then shooting a young buck? If the herd is out of wack then surly it doesn't matter how old of a buck you remove? Which is exactly what Bowdacious did! He shot three does and then a young buck. Whats your squabble? Is it QDM? The health of the herd? Or bigger antlers?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>You have never been so wrong in your life. QDM and the health of the herd are one in the same. Big antlers are icing on the cake, which in turn, turns some who believe in it(QDM), into trophy hunters, so that the younger bucks can move forward in developement.
Answer me this...How can a young buck have the chance to breed and pass on quality genetics to its offspring, whether they are bucks or does, if it doesnt matter what time in their life they are taken????
This is not a good scenario to put up because your theory doesn't make sense. IT MOST CERTAINLY DOES MATTER when a buck is harvested!! A buck cannot pass on quality genetics to its male or female offspring, if it is never allowed the chance to mature to breeding age!!!! I am disappointed in your response on this one.
Edited by - richie3 on 12/01/2002 13:59:40
Please keep in mind that the original arguement or debate is about experienced hunters taking small, young buucks or not.(refering to your now 3rd to last post)
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<font color=red>By the way....still no answer to #3!</font id=red>
Come again?? What was it you asked that wasn't already asked by Richie?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> I think he is waiting for you to answer the question both of us asked, but was never answered.
Oh, I forgot. You harvest small bucks because you choose to. I think I am getting it now. You are going to take care of you and yours first, right? Who cares what the consequenses are for future generations. I get your way of thinking now, so I will stop asking that question........good answer.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote><font color=red>
Yes, but you think it is for a different reason. Having more does taken in the name of "herd reduction" doesn't make sense. The next answer will explain why.</font id=red>
Doesn't make sense?? Your losing me here! If you want to drastically reduce the herd you target the female species. You know , the ones that give birth to one , two , sometimes three fawns each year. Much like when I was younger the does were protected (lottery tag) to increase the herd size.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I see now. The does in your herd must be some sort of "Virgin Mary" does. Wow!! That is a miracle in itself!! I didn't know that a female deer could reproduce with out the male of the species being around??
I am truly sorry for bringing in the Blessed Mother into this debate, but this goes to show how obsurd your statement is. If there is a herd explosion that needs to be eradicated or reduced, ALL sexes of said herd would be targeted.
Take for example the the CWD outbreak in Wisconsin I think it was. They were targeting getting rid of the disease and trying to stop the spread of it. Now, how did they try to do it?? Did they try to do it by killing off the does so they could not have babies with CWD???? Absolutely not!!! They targeted all deer in sight to try to reduce the spread and possible reprodcution of infected animals. This is the same reason your "doe harvest for herd reduction" theory does not make sense.
If I send you my address, will you mail me the regualtions book or guide that states these facts of herd reduction?? Missouri has one that I mentioned earlier, that comes right out and says the reasons why we have and need a significant doe harvest program, and in not one paragraph does it state in the name of "herd reduction" or anything close to that. QDM can be put into place in areas with a lcak of herd numbers, and still work.
Remember, QDM is not just about big rack bucks. It is about achieving and maintaining a healthy herd. In cases of small herd numbers, QDM may very well mean the complete elimination of hunting all together for a few years, so that the numbers build and can be more easily managed for a healthy herd. This is something I hope will never happen, and I am doing my part in preventing it from happening.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote><font color=red>
Yes, according to you. You must believe that their are not too many small bucks being taken. Here are some of your exact quotes.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Do you think their wrong for shooting the first legal buck that comes by"
"There are alot of us "regular ole plain vanilla brown it's down kinda guys."
"Some hunters are perfectly happy harvesting mediocre bucks while hoping someday, that huge trophy buck (you know, that rare mystical creature, the one you can't see every time you go out, due to TBM) will come by."
"If your into small racks, good for you."</font id=red>
Here you go again! Taking comments I made and twisting them around to look like the comment was meant towards everyone everywhere.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I don't see how I can be "twisting words around" when they are the every words YOU stated in earlier posts!! Did you state these facts about yourself just to deny that you don't believe what you yourself have said??? Like I said earlier, it is painfully obvious that you belive differently than I do, otherwise we would not still be debating about this subject. You believe it is o.k. for anyone, no matter what the level of experience, to harvest small, young bucks. I believe that the harvest of these young bucks should be left to only inexperienced and younger hunters.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>As for the hunter who shot the first legal buck?? I was refering to northern Wi (btw , you didn't answer that question) or places like northern Maine.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>I think you made a mistake, or it is possible you did not read my entire post. I did answer this question already. And I will pinpoint it for you.
Go back to to my post where I numbered questions #1 thru #8. It is the first response in black text after those questions. I would definately question it if it were an experienced hunter taking the small, young buck. The only possible exceptions now that I think about it, would be if an experienced hunter is in dire need to feed his/her family, like the one I need to hunt for, putting a young animal out of its misery due to sickness, unrecoverable injury, or immediate danger to his/her life or family members life, ect. Other than that, there is no reason what so ever, for an experienced hunter to tag a young buck.
If this is not the question you wanted answered, please number and post it again byitself, and i would be happy to give an answer.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Plain ole vanilla brown it's down kinda guys? That was sarcasm aimed at wolfen68. But yes! There are alot of true hunters who understand the big picture.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>Well...If this is your idea of a "true hunter", than I guess I am not a true hunter at all. I am sorry for not being a true hunter due to the fact that I am looking out for future generations of hunters everywhere, by doing my part in any way I can, to help insure a quality herd for them to persue. I guess I am missing the "big picture" all together.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The last two quotes! Heck ya! I stand by it! Now where was it I said that there weren't too many young bucks being shot in particular?
I am not argueing at all that there are places that need drastic measures to decrease the herd or balance the herd.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>I am sure you do. Now, did you say exactly "I said that there weren't too many young bucks being shot"??? No, you did not.....But you made it quite clear to everyone, that it is O.K. for all experienced hunters to harvest small, young bucks. This is what you are implying in one way or another. You know it and I know it, so don't try to back up the truck now.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote><font color=red> Well... That is a good step in the right direction, but still not the desired results. The key in this is to let small, immature bucks pass, culling out the old bucks who haven't generated any quality traits, and maintaining an equal balance of the buck to doe ratio by harvesting a sizable amount of does until the ratio is balanced and kept in check.</font id=red>
Ahhh , it's only a step in the right direction? So , if it's all about QDM and the health of the herd , what would hurt the health of the herd by shooting two or three does and then shooting a young buck? If the herd is out of wack then surly it doesn't matter how old of a buck you remove? Which is exactly what Bowdacious did! He shot three does and then a young buck. Whats your squabble? Is it QDM? The health of the herd? Or bigger antlers?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>You have never been so wrong in your life. QDM and the health of the herd are one in the same. Big antlers are icing on the cake, which in turn, turns some who believe in it(QDM), into trophy hunters, so that the younger bucks can move forward in developement.
Answer me this...How can a young buck have the chance to breed and pass on quality genetics to its offspring, whether they are bucks or does, if it doesnt matter what time in their life they are taken????
This is not a good scenario to put up because your theory doesn't make sense. IT MOST CERTAINLY DOES MATTER when a buck is harvested!! A buck cannot pass on quality genetics to its male or female offspring, if it is never allowed the chance to mature to breeding age!!!! I am disappointed in your response on this one.
Edited by - richie3 on 12/01/2002 13:59:40
12-01-2002, 01:42 PM
#107
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Summerfield OH USA
Posts: 798
RE: Trophy Hunting?
I must agree with you.I'm burned out on the trophy hunting for now.I'm hunting for myself now.I've started to lose some of the fun that I had years ago.I just don't care anymore.I'm still letting the little guys walk,but a big doe will fill that tag just the same.
12-01-2002, 02:13 PM
#108
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Walker LA USA
Posts: 443
RE: Trophy Hunting?
nmaineron,I remember reading about some guys I think they were the Benoit brothers or something similar.They used to kill some really big deer,300#.They would still hunt and shoot remington 760 pumps.I 've seen some PBS programs on Northern deer and winter yards.I can imagine it really gets hard to find food late in winter and coyotes could wreak havoc on weakend deer bunched together.We just don't have hard winters down south.In fact if we don't get some early frosts to kill down the browse in the thickets,we don't see nearly as many deer.We do have some coyotes but they are small and really only a threat to fawns and young deer.I have seen or heard of areas were the coyotes severely hurt the fawn survival rates.We just rarely see them,they are spooky.I agree about whitetails and edges or fringes.One reason we have so many deer is the edges created by timber harvest.My favorite spots to hunt are were hardwood btms meet pine thickets.One problem we are begining to see is an explosion in feral hogs.You see the sign everywere and they will wreak havoc on the woods and food plots.But they are spookier than deer,almost completely nocturnal.We will probably have to start trapping some,hunting alone cannot reduce the numbers and we don't have enough habitat to support hogs and deer.Now moose,I bet thats a tough critter to get out of the woods.I hear the meat is real tasty.
Billy
WHACKEM N STACKEM
Billy
WHACKEM N STACKEM
12-01-2002, 03:48 PM
#109
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Montgomery IL USA
Posts: 1,231
RE: Trophy Hunting?
<font color=red>"Oh, I forgot. You harvest small bucks because you choose to. I think I am getting it now. You are going to take care of you and yours first, right? Who cares what the consequenses are for future generations. I get your way of thinking now, so I will stop asking that question........good answer.</font id=red>
LOL!!! It's funny though. Folks have been hunting deer for generations upon generations before all this Trophy Buck Management slop became the Holy Grail. And now we're all supposed to play Chicken Little and wait for the sky to fall if we shoot a basket rack buck? <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>
Like I said before...pull the other one.
I have a hard time listening to a "for the children" speach from folks (no one in particular) who pull out their checkbooks, pay landowners to kick other hunters off property (i.e. land leases), and then belittle still more hunters for shooting a 1 1/2 year old 8-pointer, because they wanted it to live another 2 years so they could have it mounted on their wall. The whole thing stinks of hypocrisy.
JRW
LOL!!! It's funny though. Folks have been hunting deer for generations upon generations before all this Trophy Buck Management slop became the Holy Grail. And now we're all supposed to play Chicken Little and wait for the sky to fall if we shoot a basket rack buck? <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>
Like I said before...pull the other one.
I have a hard time listening to a "for the children" speach from folks (no one in particular) who pull out their checkbooks, pay landowners to kick other hunters off property (i.e. land leases), and then belittle still more hunters for shooting a 1 1/2 year old 8-pointer, because they wanted it to live another 2 years so they could have it mounted on their wall. The whole thing stinks of hypocrisy.
JRW
12-01-2002, 04:55 PM
#110
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blossvale, New York
Posts: 21,199
RE: Trophy Hunting?
AMEN!!!!!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
WE NOW HAVE:
More deer than ever
Fewer Hunters than ever
Decreasing huntable land
We can't kill enough(so they come up with gererous bag limits)
BUT: If you shoot that 6 point instead of a 12 point your hunting will end. Make it a law and so be it. Make it a "Trophy Hunters" demand..... I'm not buying.
Edited by - davidmil on 12/01/2002 18:00:29
WE NOW HAVE:
More deer than ever
Fewer Hunters than ever
Decreasing huntable land
We can't kill enough(so they come up with gererous bag limits)
BUT: If you shoot that 6 point instead of a 12 point your hunting will end. Make it a law and so be it. Make it a "Trophy Hunters" demand..... I'm not buying.
Edited by - davidmil on 12/01/2002 18:00:29